Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

Peter Madcat Ruth interview

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 12

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A grammy award winner, Peter Madcat Ruth has enjoyed a long career, from playing jazz with the Brubecks, to numerous solo projects and playing in various bands and duos and trios. Madcat has loved Sonny Terry from the start and has really mastered the style, and gives some pointers during the podcast.

Select the Chapter Markers tab above to select different sections of the podcast (website version only).

Madcat's website:
http://www.madcatmusic.net/index.html

Equipment:
Shaker microphones:
https://shakermicrophone.net

Seydel rack:
https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel1847.sf/en_US/?ViewObjectID=43096716&Currency=EUR

Tuition Videos:
The Ins and Outs of Rhythm Harp:
https://www.homespun.com/shop/product/the-ins-and-outs-of-rhythm-harp/

Crossing the Great Divide video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yzYq4Z1JbA&list=PLIFByKm0UhsSacA6MfePEZji8j_gSiTLU

YouTube videos:

Take Five:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzDS9Mous5o&list=PLIFByKm0UhsRNUvAbrJHd7oOGAEBi0n7Z&index=2

Harmonica & percussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukh3kayiz28

Sonny Terry Meets Jimmy Hendrix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVw51Fk1hvo&list=PLIFByKm0UhsTu1OYkZjEgnwXB8ZG8hho7&index=2

Madcat & Kane: Rollin & Tumblin’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRUd8kY3L70&list=PLIFByKm0UhsRBfF_sswS2WUrtaig9ehsk

Pandemic Blues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qonON7jl4vc&list=PLIFByKm0UhsTu1OYkZjEgnwXB8ZG8hho7


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

Support the show

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, Neil Warren here again and welcome to another episode of the Happy Hour Harmonica podcast with more interviews with some of the finest harmonica players around today. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and also check out the Spotify playlist where some of the tracks discussed during the interviews can be heard. Quick word from my sponsor now, the Lone Wolf Blues Company, makers of effects pedals, microphones and more, designed for harmonica. Remember, when you want control over your tone, you want Lone Wolf. Peter Madcat Roof joins me today. A Grammy Award winner, Madcat has enjoyed a long career from playing jazz with the Brubecks to numerous solo projects and playing in various bands and duos and trios. Mad Cat loves Sumi Terry from the start and has really mastered the style and gives some pointers during the podcast. So hello, Peter Mad Cat Roof and welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Peter Madcat-Ruth, where did the Madcat come from?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, when I was in high school, I was a big blues fan. I was in this very large high school, but very few of us listening to blues. Our musician heroes had great names. Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Little Walter, Magic Sam, Lightning Hopkins. They had these fabulous names, and so amongst this group of blues enthusiasts, we made up, we called them blues names, we made up these names for each other. It was just a joke amongst five or six people. There was Sunnyland Seidenberg, and there was Big Boom, and there was Mad Cat, and as I say, completely just a joke amongst friends. And then three years later, I joined a band, and the drummer in the band was named Peter. which is my name. So I joined this band, moved to another city where I didn't know anyone except the band members. And they said, well, we can't have two Peters in the same band. Do you have any nicknames? And I said, yeah, you could call me Mad Cat. So from right then, I guess that was 1969, I was introduced to everyone in this new town as, oh, this is Mad Cat. He just moved here from Chicago. That's when the name changed from being just a joke nickname to my stage name.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, it's a good name. And it seems to suit your image with your kind of wild flowing hair as well. I think it works well. Yeah. So obviously you grew up or you're born in Illinois. You were around the Chicago area. So what was it like growing around there? And what sort of influence did that have on you in your early life and musical life?

SPEAKER_02:

I grew up in this town called Park Ridge, which was just the northwest first suburb on the northwest side of Chicago. And great radio shows. I could listen to the radio and watch Almost everyone was listening to the top 40 radio stations. I was listening to the soul music radio stations coming out of Chicago. And they'd be soul music up till midnight and then blues from midnight till four in the morning. And that was my introduction to genuine, real Chicago blues. I was a big fan. I loved that stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you remember when you first heard harmonica, what was it that got you hooked on the harmonica?

SPEAKER_02:

First harmonica player that really got me hooked was Sonny Terry. And I heard him on a, it was a folk music radio show. Every Saturday there was this show called the Midnight Special. They played three hours of folk music and I heard Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee and it just blew my mind. I was 15 years old. I'd already been playing some guitar, but when I heard at age 15, I heard Sonny Terry playing harmonica. I said, oh man, I'm going to have to learn how to do that. And so for the first two years of playing harmonica, Really, the only harmonica player I ever listened to was Sonny Terry.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_02:

then 1966 or so, I started saying, well, I wonder who else is out there. And Junior Wells had just come out with Hoodoo Man Blues. That was one of the first records I got. And the Paul Butterfield first record came out. And I bought the best of Little Walter and Sonny Boy Williamson. And then the three records set Chicago the Blues today with Junior Wells, Big Walter Horton, James Cotton. From there on, I just dove in to listening to harmonica all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

I believe you went on then to have a few lessons with Big Walter himself. So how was that?

SPEAKER_02:

Mind-blowing. I was in this Unitarian Church youth group in 1966. I'd go down there because... These kids seem to have a different appreciation for blues than the kids in my hometown. And they wanted to put on a blues weekend. And they wanted to hire a genuine blues band. So we chipped in some money and$150 or something. And we sent one guy down to a store called Jazz Record Mart, which was also home of Delmark Records, and said, well, we have this much money. Who can we get to come to play in our church basement on a Saturday afternoon? And he sat down, Johnny Young, Big Walter Horton, and this young, skinny, white drummer. And at the time, I had no idea who he was. Later, it turned out to be Iggy Pop at this Saturday afternoon concert. I was just blown away because here's Big Walter Horton and Johnny Young playing together. right there in the church basement, and I'm sitting, you know, in the front row. And I already knew who they were because I had this record set, Chicago the Blues, today. So I was just blown away by this fabulous music. I heard Walter Horton tell someone else, oh, yeah, I give lessons. And I said, oh, my God, he gives lessons. And this was October. It took till the next April to get up my nerve. But he said, oh, yeah, I give lessons. Contact me through Jazz Record Mart. Went down there and said, how do I get all the big Walter Horton? And he said, well, call Lincoln's Grocery Store. He doesn't have a telephone, but call Lincoln's Grocery Store. and keep calling there because he hangs out there sometimes. So I did. I called and kept calling, and maybe the fourth or fifth time he was there, and we set up a time to take a lesson. I ended up taking three lessons with him.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that was fantastic. You're so lucky, first of all, to get him as your blues band that you saw and then to have some lessons with him. What was he like then as a person?

SPEAKER_02:

Interesting. When you take a harmonica lesson these days, someone will say, well, yeah, you get out and you play hole number four and bend it down a half step and all this stuff. He would say absolutely nothing like that. He'd just get a harmonica out and go, you do it. So then I'd try to go, say no. And then he'd play it again. You do it. And after a while, he'd just point. He'd play something and just point at me, and I'd try to do it.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_02:

he'd say, no, or just give a sour look, you know. And that was the entire lesson. He'd tell me what key he was playing, and that's all. It was all by ear other than that.

SPEAKER_00:

So did you feel you got good value for money from these lessons?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, because I was hearing– the possibilities of what could be done on a harmonica. You know, when you hear it on a record or something, you think, oh, well, maybe it's some studio trick, or they added extra reverb, or it was something other than what it really was. But he was getting this incredibly fabulous tones and sounds, and he was just on the other side of the kitchen table from me. So mainly, what I learned is that it was possible. And then by the next lesson, play.

SPEAKER_01:

You

SPEAKER_02:

do it. You know, I was getting closer. And by the third lesson, you know, he'd do something like.

SPEAKER_01:

You

SPEAKER_02:

know, and I'd be able to get the notes. I didn't have the tone. But I had the notes and I was working on the tone. Although I did say one of the most foolish things I ever said was what I, at the first lesson, he said, well, what do you want to know? And I said, I want to know how to play like Junior Wells. Because I had just been listening so much to the Hoodoo Man Blues record. And I really did want to learn how to play like Junior Wells. But it was kind of the wrong thing to say to Big Walter Horton.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you remember any particular records which really grabbed you in the early days?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the three-record set on Vanguard called Chicago the Blues Today. It's fabulous.

SPEAKER_00:

Any particular tracks?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, there's one called Rock My Boogie or something with Big Walter Horton and Charlie Musselwhite playing second harmonica. That's a really great track.

SPEAKER_01:

But

SPEAKER_02:

all of this stuff on that record, the big Walter Horton with Johnny Young and the big Walter Horton with Johnny Shines, especially fabulous.

SPEAKER_00:

So before then, when you were younger... Did you play any other sorts of instruments? Because you play quite an assortment of instruments now, which we'll get onto, but I think you liked singing initially, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02:

I was crazy about the Kingston Trio when I was 11 years old, and the kid across the street had a ukulele that he got tired of, and he gave that ukulele to my brother. Then my brother got tired of it, and I took over the ukulele at age 11, and I started trying to play along with the Kingston Trio records. So ukulele was my first instrument. I played that a year and a half or so and asked my parents if I couldn't get a guitar, and they got me a guitar eventually. So then I took guitar lessons at a local guitar store, and I did that for a year or so. And then I learned about the Old Town School of Folk Music. So maybe when I was 14 or something, I started taking guitar lessons there. Guitar was my main instrument at that time until... age 15 when I heard Sonny Terry. And I continued to play guitar. I still play guitar. My guitar playing is pretty good, but my harmonica playing quickly surpassed my guitar playing.

SPEAKER_00:

I hear that your first harmonica was one you got from your father. You had one buried in his sock drawer somewhere.

SPEAKER_02:

That is absolutely correct. My father had a B-flat marine band. He'd play maybe 10 minutes a year. And he'd play just little melodies and stuff. Things like that. He wasn't particularly good at it, but I guess you don't get good at it if you only play it 10 minutes a year. But I got my first recording with Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee. It was a collection of songs called Folk Music at Newport. And Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee had two songs on the record. So I got out the harmonica and I tried playing along. On one song, it sounded awful. And on the other song, fortunately for me, my... Sonny Terry was playing on a B-flat marine band exactly like what my dad had. So when I just chugged along, at least it was in the same key. And so that gave me hope for continuing to play. I

SPEAKER_00:

also hear that when you were younger, just learning again, you used to walk around the street and even ride your bike playing the harmonica.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, yeah. Starting at age 15, I always had a harmonica with me and I I did a lot of playing while riding a bike, a lot of playing walking around, even in high school, between classes in school. I played the harmonica while walking from one class to another because

SPEAKER_00:

I was hooked. I think your first concert was in a neighbor's house, in a house concert, and then you were in a church band before joining a blues band when you were 18.

SPEAKER_02:

I started just playing solo, and then I met a kid that Played a lot of different instruments. And we had a band called the Petey Tweety Band. And it was ukulele and bongos. And he played some flute. I played some harmonica. And he played guitar, too. And so we had this eclectic little music band. I went to a year of college at the University of Illinois in Chicago. I put up a notice on the bulletin board saying, I'm looking for a band. I play harmonica. and got a call from a guy, and I joined his band. It was called the Stanley Moss Blues Band. I was also in, maybe this was even earlier. Yeah, I think it was even earlier. I was in a band called the Soulful Seven. We played soul music. There was bass, guitar, drums, and harmonica playing the saxophone parts that you'd hear on our soul music record. We had three singers up front. That was a good education, too.

SPEAKER_00:

I think in the 1970s then, your career started really taking off. And what was one of your first real professional gigs playing with the Brubeck brothers? So for people who don't know, they're the sons of Dave Brubeck, the very famous jazz piano player who had the best-selling jazz single of all time, Take Five.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. So in 1968... I got a call from a friend, said there's going to be a jam session at his house. Why don't I come by? And there was a bunch of high school students from a music school called Interlochen Arts Academy. And they were in town to play a concert, a classical music concert. And they were being put up at people's houses. And this friend said, come on over and join the jam session. So I did. And Chris Brubeck was one of these kids, probably 16 years old at the time. We had this jam session. It went really well. And at the end of that session, he said, well, give me your address and phone number because a year from now, I'm going to graduate this school and I'm going to start a band and we're going to make records and I want you to be on it.

SPEAKER_00:

Did you know he was the son of Dave Brubeck at this point?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I was told that. And I thought, okay, here's my name and address and I'll never hear from this kid again. But sure enough, a year later... I get a letter in the mail, and it says, I'm going to record our first demo tape. I want you to come to Michigan and be on it. So I joined his band called New Heavenly Blue, and that was in the spring of 1969. First demo record led to a second demo session, which led to our first recording on RCA record. Yeah, I was just a kid myself, but... I was in his band and recording in professional recording studios and on a genuine record label.

SPEAKER_00:

You recorded a soundtrack for Jesus Christ Superstar as well during that time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we never recorded anything for Jesus Christ Superstar, but the band, New Heavenly Blue, the rock band, playing with the Kansas City Symphony and the Dallas Symphony and performing the show. So that was kind of mind-boggling too. I'd never been on a stage with a symphony orchestra, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And then you went on to play with Darius Brubeck as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it was a little bit later. After the first RCA record, we did another audition at Atlantic Records and were picked up by Atlantic Records and did our second New Heavenly Blue record on Atlantic Records. So then we started a third project. It was a band called Sky King. Some of the members of New Heavenly Blue started playing in this new band, Sky King. We put another demo out, sent it down to Steve Cropper in Memphis, Tennessee. He liked it, so we went down there and did some recording. And that project was sold to Columbia Records. So here I've only been playing harmonica less than 10 years. I've been on RCA. Atlantic and Columbia Records.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. And this is all harmonica you were playing during this time with these bands?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because I played guitar, but I wasn't nearly as good as the other guitar players in the band, so I didn't do anything on guitar with these guys.

SPEAKER_00:

And this all led on to you actually performing with Dave Brubeck himself, and there's recordings of you playing Take Five with Dave Brubeck, yeah?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So after Sky King joined the band, Darius Brubeck Ensemble. The Darius Brubeck Ensemble was pretty much a jazz group with tenor sax, clarinet. bass, trombone, and harmonica as a horn section. Darius played piano, and that was an amazing experience to be part of a horn section. I learned so much in that band, and after a while, we'd be opening act for the Dave Brubeck Quartet, and then about 1974, Dave Brubeck disbanded his quartet and started using Darius' band as his backup band, and it became known as Two Generations of Brubeck, and I was in that group for about five years.

SPEAKER_00:

And you played at Carnegie Hall and the Newport Jazz Festival in that outfit.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it was Newport Jazz Festival in exile, I guess they called it. It was sponsored, a concert sponsored by them. And also the Sydney Opera House in Mexico. And we played in Germany and Switzerland and Austria, all over the place.

SPEAKER_00:

So maybe you can talk a moment about how you approached your harmonica. You're playing in on a full-on jazz band here. So what were you doing with your harmonica in this band?

SPEAKER_02:

I was woodshedding like crazy, trying to keep up, really. I realized that there was missing notes. the diatonic, they'd be going to places where they didn't have the notes. So I'd be piling harmonicas on top of each other, just setting one on top of the other and jumping up between the harmonicas to get the missing notes. And I learned how to switch harmonicas very quickly, sort of. I'd be going between different harmonicas. You just pull the one on the bottom out and the one on the top drops down. And so in order to play something like, in order to play Blue Rondo a la Turk, it took two harmonicas. You just have to remember when to switch. Maybe one harmonica you'd be playing in second position and the second harmonica you'd be playing in third position. You just have to learn where to find these notes, figure out when to switch harmonicas and what position to play in to find the notes you're looking for.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think a lot of people do that, do they? This idea that you will quickly change your harmonica mid-song to make it fit.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, I just was listening to your former podcast with Charlie McCoy, and yeah, he'd do that. And of course, Norton Buffalo was amazing at switching harmonicas quickly. It's before I'd heard either one of those guys do it. I was looking for the notes, and if I couldn't find them on one, I'd find it on another.

SPEAKER_00:

You didn't do any overblows or anything at that point?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I still don't. I squeak out a couple of overblows per month, maybe one or two.

SPEAKER_00:

Played with them through the 70s. And then you went on to, well, I think you were in various bands and different outfits throughout the 80s. And then you had a longtime duo with Shari Kane in the Mad Cat and Kane duo, which I think you were in for 24 years.

SPEAKER_02:

That's exactly right. 24 years. That's the longest running group I was ever in. During the 80s, I'd have a band for a while. I'd play solo for a while. I'd have a duo. I'd play solo. I'd have a trio. I'd play solo. And also during that time, I did a lot of school assembly programs, a lot of kids shows. But then in the early 90s, I hooked up with Sherry Cain. It was kind of by accident. I mean, I knew she played guitar and she'd been a friend since the late 70s. But I was going to do a duo show at a big outdoor concert in Ann Arbor. Morning of the show, my duo partner from Chicago called up. He said he was having car trouble. He couldn't make it. So I thought, well, I have this big show. What am I going to do? I know I'll call Sherry, and she can come sit in for a couple of songs and help me along here. And so she did, and it went very well. So after that, we started playing a few more shows and then a few more, and then it turned into a duo, which I did pretty much full-time for 24 years.

SPEAKER_01:

I said I hear your voice, seize my worry, my open-eyed cat

SPEAKER_00:

I think, did they play at your 70th birthday concert?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, she came and played on that. She was also on my 60th birthday concert and I guess my 50th too.

SPEAKER_00:

Every 10 years I try to have a big concert. And then also you play regularly in Brazil.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I went down with Sherry Kane to Brazil one time. There was a promoter from Chicago that arranged for us to go down there. We played at a blues festival. And when I was there, I met some Brazilian harmonica players. And then two years later, we were asked to go back. And so... I contacted these harmonica players and said, yeah, I'm coming back. Maybe we can see each other again. And this guy, Jefferson, before email, so he faxed me a note saying, if you come back, spend an extra few days at the end playing with this guitar player named Big Joe Von Fra. So I said, sure, why not? Those concerts went so well. Big Joe hired me to come back to Brazil another 12 times after that. So I've been 13 tours of Brazil over the years.

SPEAKER_00:

An album of yours I really love, and I think it's a solo one, is the Harmonica and Ukulele Project. Really love that album. And yeah, if you could just talk about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_02:

My first solo record, which was a CD, my first solo CD was called Harmonicology, which was all harmonica and percussion. And then that was followed by Harmonica and Ukulele Project, because I'd kind of forgotten about ukulele for decades i just was playing guitar and then i got a ukulele again and i really started enjoying it and realizing that all the technique i'd been learning on guitar for many decades could be reapplied to the uke uh that was recorded in my house in my home studio and yeah it's just a collection of songs that i put together using ukulele and harmonica the birth of spring is at hand

SPEAKER_00:

So you obviously mentioned ukulele there, and that was your first instrument. But you play quite a lot of instruments, playing guitars, you already said, ukulele, and Jew's Heart, which you put in, I think banjo, and penny whistles, and lots of different things you try and incorporate into your playing, into your shows, is it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's fun to just make music on whatever is around. And so all those instruments you mentioned are the ones I play the most, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Again, you do this great thing I'll put a clip on from YouTube where you do all these different things with percussion. So you're playing percussion at the same time as you play, actually the same time as you're playing the harmonica, very effective as well. So how did you develop that trick?

SPEAKER_02:

It first came when I was doing kids shows in the 1980s. I started using these little noisemakers to entertain the kids. And then I found out later that adults really enjoyed it also. Something that I just put together. I don't know. I'd never seen anyone else do it. It's just something I thought up.

SPEAKER_00:

effective like that. As you're saying, it works so well, the harmonica. You do little rhythm things with the percussion. You've got the little shaker and the little whistles. Do you put that quite often into your shows?

SPEAKER_02:

In a solo show, I'll do it. In a band show, I don't do it, except for when I'm playing with Chris Brubeck's triple play. We often put that as part of the show. My dad had some crow calls and duck calls. In his younger days, he was a hunter. It was the duck call and the crow call that was the first two Noisemakers and then I just added to the collection.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so your most recent band then, I think it's the Mad Cat Midnight Blues Journey. Is that your current band?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it is. Although we're on hiatus right now because of the lockdown. There's no summer concerts in Michigan this year. But when I get back to it, I'm looking forward to playing with these guys again. Great band. Bass, drums, guitar and harmonica.

SPEAKER_00:

Talking about awards then, so in 1997 you won the Spa Player of the Year. How was that?

SPEAKER_02:

That was mind-blowing, because no diatonic player had ever won that award, and I certainly wasn't expecting to win that award at all. In fact, when they started to announce who was going to win the award, I said, well, I'll find out as soon as I get back from the bathroom, so I went to the bathroom. Someone came in and said, hey, why don't you come back in and see who wins this award? And I said, okay, I'll go back in. I was very surprised that it was me.

SPEAKER_00:

So you say you're the first diatonic harmonica player. So had that usually gone to chromatic players before?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it had always gone to a chromatic player. For the whole history of spa up until me, it was always a chromatic player. So I was definitely shocked.

SPEAKER_00:

Fantastic. And then you've also won a Grammy in 2006. Yeah, I

SPEAKER_02:

was on a recording by a guy named William Balcom. And it's this huge project called Songs of Innocence and of Experience. And this guy, William Balcom, had taken the poems of William Blake and made orchestrations for the whole thing. As part of it, a huge orchestra, a reggae band, some folk musicians, a whole huge chorus, a children's chorus. It was just, this production was just way over the top. And I was called to play some harmonica, some folk guitar, and do some singing. It was quite a project, and I was glad to be called and glad to be part of it. It was over, and I thought, well, that's over. I didn't think of anything of it. And then that recording... won the classical music album of the year. I had no idea it was nominated or anything. I just get a package in the mail that said from the Grammy Awards. And so I thought, oh, what do they want? They want some money or something. I didn't even open it for a few days. And then I opened it up and it said, hey, Grammy Award winner for your participation in the CD of the year. So that was a surprise.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, amazing. And on a classical album as well. So it's again showing your versatility and you're playing folk bands, obviously blues bands, jazz with the Brubecks, and now a classical piece. So what sort of stuff were you playing on this album?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, my portion of it was kind of straight ahead, first position harmonica, singing and guitar, a little second position harmonica too. I didn't play very much on this album. But there it was. I got this thing in the mail. It says, here's a Grammy for your participation in Classical Record of the Year. I didn't get a statue or anything. I just got a plaque to put on the wall.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, so you've been in, as you say, a lot of bands, a very long, successful career, playing all sorts of different bands and genres and played on lots of people's CDs. I wonder if you've got any advice for people who are starting out or maybe to kickstart their own musical career on harmonica.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, just being versatile is excellent. Limiting yourself is... I wouldn't recommend it. I think of record... I mean, of music categories as kind of just something that record stores need. Because they know where to put their records. But music categories don't really mean that much to me. It's just... I just like all different kinds of music. And meeting up with Chris Brubeck was really good, because... he really likes blues and jazz and folk music and classical music. And all our collaborations have been combinations of different kinds of music. I just want to, when I approach harmonica, I want to see, well, what can be done with this instrument? Yeah. I just try to be versatile.

SPEAKER_00:

So another thing you do with playing your, your other instruments is you play harmonica on a rack, you know, when you're playing guitar or the ukulele as well. So what, What about playing harmonica on a rack? How does that differ? And any tips for people about how to do that well?

SPEAKER_02:

When I'm driving to a gig and I can take my own equipment, I have a system where my harmonica is on a mic stand, a rack built on a mic stand. So then it's not around my neck. And so I can sing into one microphone and just lean a few inches to the left and play this harmonica and then lean a few inches to the right and sing. And that's the way I prefer doing it. However, if I am flying to a gig and need to play rack harmonica, I'm using the new Pete Farmer Seidel harmonica. harmonica rack which when it comes to harmonica racks is the the very best one i've i've come across

SPEAKER_00:

so i i saw that um the uh the rack attached to the microphone stand i was really interested in that because i think a lot of people you know it can be quite a hindrance can't it having that rack in your face you know particularly if you want to sing as well and it's kind of a visual deterrent isn't it sort of having it there in your face and it gets in the way so it's a really good idea so what exactly is that rack built onto the mic stand

SPEAKER_02:

There's a lot of things over the years. I'm a tinkerer, so I've made different systems. But the current system is a Shure Beta 57 microphone. And then it happens that the top of a vitamin bottle fits exactly on top of a Shure Beta 57. So it's half of a vitamin bottle, and then it's half of a harmonica, plastic harmonica box and they're duct taped together. It's just, it works. I just like to tinker with stuff, see what works.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So is that something it's kind of fixed on? So you kind of have to take the whole mic stand with you if you're going to use it, as you say.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, right. You do. And you need to have a weight on the bottom of the mic stand. So I have the mic stand bolted down to a piece of plywood. so that it won't move away when I push up against it. Yeah, it's just something that works and it doesn't look beautiful, but it works really well.

SPEAKER_00:

And what about actually playing the harmonica on the right? Again, I do it a little bit myself, but it's quite different, isn't it? Not being able to hold it in your hands, you get a different sound, the way you can move your head against it, as you've just said. It's quite a different way to play it, isn't it? Any particular way you approach it?

SPEAKER_02:

So much of harmonica playing has to do with how you use your hands, all the wah-wah.

SPEAKER_01:

All

SPEAKER_02:

that stuff, you lose that. And also when you do a warble, you kind of lose that. But I learned a few little techniques. One is to do a warble with your tongue. And so you can do that. when the harmonic is in the rack. It's a whole different approach, but it works out pretty well. And sometimes I run that rack through some effects pedals so I can get an interesting sound, not just the sound of a rack harp through a vocal mic.

SPEAKER_00:

So talking about your teaching now, I think you've just started a new set of instructional videos on your YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I put one up so far. I'll probably put a couple more, but I'm not big into teaching. When I go to a Sabah convention, I love being part of the workshops. I'll give a seminar sort of thing, but I don't teach on a regular basis. I don't have regular students just because, I don't know, I don't have the patience for it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00:

Just do what Big Walter do and just say, play that.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

And, you know, there's some people that are just fabulous harmonica teachers, like Joe Felisco or Dave Barrett. Some people are just meant to be harmonica teachers. But I limit it to a few workshops a year. Maybe I'll put up a couple more videos.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a good video you watch. It's called Crossing the Great Divide, and it's about how you play at the top end. And as you say in that video, you know, a lot of harmonica players will neglect that top end. So maybe give us a quick point to hear about how you, you know, how you make the best of the top end. You play some great top end stuff yourself.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, it's just the breathing pattern at the lower end is different than in the middle, and it's different than at the top end. And so... In order to play with the Brubeck band, I had to figure out the whole range of the harmonica because if you're limited to just the bottom six holes, you'd be missing 40% of what you could do. So I learned how to do things using the whole harmonica. So yeah, on my YouTube channel, I have this little thing about how to get from a little exercise to help you get from the low end to the top end. A couple of different exercises how to do it.

SPEAKER_00:

Just one last thing on the teaching side. So quite a few years ago now, you released a Rhythm Harmonica DVD.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the ins and outs of Rhythm Harmonica on Homespun tapes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right, yeah. And I think, is that still available on Homespun? Yes, I believe it is. Again, a great DVD. I saw that quite a few years ago and a friend of mine called Simon Hall absolutely loved that DVD and it really inspired him to learn some of the things you did on there. And he came up with this great Sonny Terry piece based on that DVD. So he really loved it. It was a great inspiration to him. Let me talk a little bit about playing rhythm. It's a big part of your playing, playing the rhythm on harmonica.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, as I'm trying to play like Sonny Terry, but I wasn't playing quite like Sonny Terry was. I was playing the sound of Mad Cat trying to imitate Sonny Terry, and I realized I was doing things that other harmonica players weren't doing at all. Part of it had to do with what I call hoppas, where you're... where you're inhaling, and your bottom lip is moving off the harmonica altogether.

UNKNOWN:

You kind of...

SPEAKER_02:

And hop on the in-breath and then the out-breath. And with this, you can get quite a bit of speed. The ins and outs of rhythm harmonica slows that all down and explains how I do it. Because someone asked me, how do you do that? I said, I have no idea. And I had to slow it down myself to figure out what it was I was doing. And yeah, so then I recorded the CD out of that experience of figuring out what I was doing, because I had no idea what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's great stuff. And again, showing a lot of those early influences that Sonny Terry and you're playing, you know, you're one of the exponents of the Sonny Terry style, aren't you? You do that very well.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, as I mentioned, I only listened to Sonny Terry the first two years I was playing harmonica, so I really got it in my system somehow. And right, Sonny Terry would put these little hoops in between the notes, and it seems very few harmonica players do that anymore, but it's something that I find amazing, and I still like to do it. And it actually fits in amazingly well with not just folk blues, but That style can fit in with all different styles of harmonica playing.

SPEAKER_00:

Those whoops and hollers, as they're called, it's something I've never quite mastered these whoops and hollers, so maybe a quick tip on how you get those.

SPEAKER_02:

There's a couple of different ways to fit them in. If you go, ah, you get that singing note, and then a blow and then a draw. Ah,

SPEAKER_01:

ah,

SPEAKER_02:

ah. That's one way to fit it in. And then another is a, it's an ah and then a bent note. So. And in a triplet there. And so. So then you can go back and forth between the two.

SPEAKER_01:

It

SPEAKER_00:

sounds great. And it's getting them in at that speed, isn't it? So they really flow in it. That's the real trick to it, isn't it? And when you can get that right, it sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And with this hapa, hapa, hapa technique, you don't have to be breathing as deeply. You just kind of use the bellows of your mouth to get it at a faster speed. And it's something that is explained in the ins and outs of... rhythm harmonica.

SPEAKER_00:

Another thing you do really well, uh, in your style of harmonica playing is you, uh, you do lots of, lots of really fast playing, which fits, you know, it doesn't, you know, it fits really well. It doesn't sound like you're out of time, you know? So what's your approach to playing fast in the harmonica?

SPEAKER_02:

Don't know. It's just, I don't know if I have an approach. Uh, actually over the years I've been playing slower and slower because sometimes, uh, Too many notes gets in the way. I was listening to Charlie McCoy's interview where he was saying that one of his favorite recordings is where he just plays four little slow fills. So I think it's important when playing is to be able to play slow and fast and melodically and rhythmically and try to have a a big toolbox of what a harmonica can do. But yeah, sometimes you can play fast. It has its place, but I don't do it all the time. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

you've got to choose your moments. But yeah, when you do it, it sounds great. And, you know, you keep the timing good. I think that's the secret to it. Maybe that's part of what you've done around, you know, the whoops and hollers, kind of the rhythm sort of stuff. Maybe it helps you develop that to keep that timing good. correct when you're doing it

SPEAKER_02:

yeah it's it's keeping timing is important for sure and it's uh i would recommend to any beginning harmonica player or any harmonica player really if they want to play along with a metronome it helps because uh then when you go to playing with other musicians so your timing won't be off you know

SPEAKER_00:

a lot of time you've uh you did a lot of singing you've been the main singer in the band as well yeah

SPEAKER_02:

yes i have right After New Heavenly Blue, I didn't do hardly any singing. And it wasn't until I started playing solo that I started having to do my own singing. But over the years, it's gotten better.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think as a harmonica player, in many ways, you kind of almost need to sing, don't you, to be the front man in the band. It's an important part, isn't it? But a lot of people are reluctant to sing. So was that the same for you? You felt you had to sing, you push yourself in that direction?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, when you're doing a solo show, you really have to sing. And I've done so many over the years. I'd have a duo, a trio, a band, and they'd all fall apart. And then you go back to doing a solo show. And I love playing solo shows. And I love playing duo shows and trio shows. And in all those situations, I'm usually the main singer. Do you play any chromatic harmonica at all? A little bit in the band Triple Play with Chris Brubach, there's a couple of songs. I'm not a very good chromatic player. I'm only comfortable in a couple of keys, and I never really practice it. The diatonics harmonicas, I love the sound of those harmonicas. I love the bent notes. I love the chord possibilities, and so I don't get around to playing chromatic very often.

SPEAKER_00:

Question I ask each time, if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_02:

I'd probably play some songs. I'd probably think of a song that I'd like to play and play it, because I find it's more entertaining to myself. Think of a song and then think, well, what if I played that same song in first position? And what if I played that same song in third position or 12th position? What would it sound like? And so I kind of will amuse myself in that way. And by trying out melodies in different positions, I think that's a great way to practice. But it's also it's more entertaining than just running scales or something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

And so you're playing these songs just from your head rather than written music.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because I'm very poor at reading music. Yeah. In all these decades of playing, I really just play by ear. Well, when I'd play with a symphony, I'd have to really learn a part, and I learned how to follow along in a score, but I'm not at all a sight reader. Never really learned that way. And also, diatonic harmonica and sight reading is very difficult because you're always picking up a different harmonica. Chromatic playing and reading makes sense, but diatonic harmonica, and reading doesn't make much sense at all.

SPEAKER_00:

What harmonica do you play? So you're a Seidel endorser these days, so what Seidel harmonicas do you like?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, my absolute favorite these days is the new Seidel lightning harmonica. Before that, I was using the Noble. Lightnings aren't available in all keys, so I still have Noble harmonicas. I started out on marine band, and then... I don't know. I'm not sure what year it was. Probably late 70s. Chamber Huang said, why don't you try one of these silver tone harmonicas? And I liked it. So I switched from being a Hohner endorser to a Huang endorser. And I played those for a while. But over the years, the quality of those harmonicas was going down. Alberto Bertolazzi from Herring Harmonica said, hey, try one of these. And I tried it. And that was great. really a very good quality harmonica. So I switched and I became a herring endorser. And I was a herring endorser for many years. But the same thing happened. The quality of the harmonicas was going down. And then I started playing sidal harmonicas. Fortunately for me, they decided to make me a sidal endorser. Yeah. What do you think about the steel reeds? They last so much longer.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Some people say that they're harder to play. I don't find that at all. The way I play, they sound the same to me. Do you have a favorite key of harmonica? I carry a C harmonica in my pocket at all times. Part of the reason for that is singing in the key of G. That's right in the middle of my particular singing range. Also, a C harmonica is not too high and it's not too low. A lot of people that play folk music or blues or country music can play the key of G. So that's what I keep in my pocket. And do you play different tunings? I have a couple of different tunings. There's two songs that Mad Cat Midnight Blues Journey plays that I use altered tunings. One is On the Road Again. The sixth hole is tuned up. Here's a regular A harp.

SPEAKER_01:

A harp.

SPEAKER_02:

So the sixth draw is tuned up a half step, and that's so you can get that song. You

SPEAKER_01:

can

SPEAKER_02:

get that high note there, which on a regular harp you'd have to get with an overblow. I also have a harmonica, which I... tuned to a minor chord on the inhale instead of a major chord on the inhale. And I use that once in a while. And I used to have, still somewhere around the house, I have a Charlie McCoy style country harp tuning. I used to play that once in a while, but I haven't been using that recently. 97% of my playing is just on standard tuning.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, obviously you've developed this technique of being able to switch harmonicas very quickly, haven't you? So that's kind of how you got over the issue there, haven't you? Instead of having to retune, you know, different tunings, you switch harmonicas.

SPEAKER_02:

Also getting really comfortable playing in first, second, third, fourth, fifth and twelfth positions. If you feel comfortable in all those positions, then you can find plenty of notes.

SPEAKER_00:

We touched on it a little bit early on, but do you use any overblows at all?

SPEAKER_02:

No. I mean, yes. I try to play one overblow per month. I mean, I really appreciate the people that have spent the time to do that style. And it's just amazing what they can do. And Howard Levy has been a very good friend of mine for many, many years. And he's just phenomenal at doing that. And then people like Jason Rishi, Carlos Del Junco. They can do that style so well. So next question, what embouchure

SPEAKER_00:

do you use?

SPEAKER_02:

I switch between puckering and tongue blocking, constantly switching back and forth. And I don't think about it at all. I use them both. However, if I'm bending a note, it's puckering. And I know how to bend a note. tongue-blocking, but I find it uncomfortable, and it's just the way I've been playing for so many decades. So that's how I do it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people I've talked to on here have said that they switch between the two. You find you're able to just do it without thinking, then, are you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. When I'm playing my best, I'm hardly thinking at all. I'm listening and saying, oh, I didn't know I was going to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, instinctive is often the best way, isn't it? So what's your amplifier of choice? Well, first of all, about

SPEAKER_02:

half my shows I play through a guitar amp, and about half my shows I just play through a PA without an amp. But when I play through an amp, it's a PV transformer. It's an amp that they don't make anymore, but it's a modeling amp. It's no tubes in it at all, but it can emulate the sound of various amplifiers. I find it completely reliable and very versatile.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so you will switch between using the different modeling amplifiers in there to get different sounds. Is that the main reason for using it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, although mostly I just have it set for one, which is kind of emulating an old Fender amp. But yeah, sometimes I use the other models as well. But mostly I have it on that one setting. And then I play through a pedal board too when I'm playing an electric show. And so I get a lot of the variation in tones from my pedal board rather than from the amp.

SPEAKER_00:

So about your effects, you do this great recording, which is Sonny Terry meets Jimi Hendrix, which recorded back in 1983. So you must have been pretty early on using the different effects on harmonica. So how did that recording come about?

SPEAKER_02:

That was... I guess from my first solo record, which was an LP called Mad Cat Gone Solo. And I'd been playing in a band and the band broke up and I thought, well, I'll just go solo. So that's how that record name came to be. But I'd been playing through an amp. Well, the first amp I had was called a Heathkit amp. And it was this company, Heathkit, that you... It was a kit that you put together. You'd solder the circuit board together. Because I couldn't afford a Fender amp. But I put this amp together and it was a solid state amp. And then I was, you know, harmonica players would tell me, you know, well, you're doing it wrong. You have to have a tube amp in order to play right. But Hey, I'd already been on three albums and toured the world, and I thought, well, I can't be all that wrong. So I've mostly played through solid state amps, just because I didn't want to mess with having to change a tube, and because they were reliable.

SPEAKER_00:

But what effects did you use on that Sonny Terry meets Jimi Hendrix song?

SPEAKER_02:

At the time, I was using a microphone amp, It was a Wollensack tape recorder microphone, high impedance, little plastic thing. I made a microphone that would attach to my finger and had a volume control on my wrist on a watch band. But it was that Wollensack mic. And somehow the Wollensack mic with the speaker cabinet that I was using would get this amazing feedback that you can control by how close or far you got away from the speaker. So I developed that sound in the mid-70s, I guess.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, so all that is just feedback, the sounds on that record.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that squeal is controlled feedback by how close my mic was from the speaker and how much I'd cup the mic with my hand. And so once that mic broke and I started using other mics, the feedback, it had to do with the combination of that particular mic and the speaker and the distance between the two. And so I don't have that sound anymore. I kind of miss it, but... I have other sounds now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so what effects pedals do you use now?

SPEAKER_02:

I use a POG, which is polyphonic octave device. And so it plays an octave up and an octave low or the main octave itself. And it has three dials where you can dial in the amount of the octave. So I use that once in a while. And I also have a delay pedal called a Supa Puss pedal. I love this delay pedal. It's an analog pedal, but it's digitally controlled. And it has a tap tempo. So you can tap in the exact tempo you want the delay to be. And then you also can make, by turning a knob, you can turn that into triplets or dotted eighth notes or eighth notes. I like to have a delay pedal that's highly adjustable. Those are my main two pedals. I run my sound through a graphic equalizer to get out some of the more shrill feedback bits. And then in the amp itself, my PV transformer amp has some phase shifting, some flanging, some Leslie speaker simulation, a nice reverb effect. So I use those sometimes.

SPEAKER_00:

And microphone-wise, you're well known for the Shaker Madcat harmonica microphone. Is that still your microphone of choice?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, absolutely. I had this microphone made out of the Wollensack tape recorder mic, and then when that one broke, I had some made out of a RadioShack tape recorder mic, but after a while, you couldn't get those anymore. But I showed it to Joe Harless of Shaker Microphone one time. I said, well, I like that little original Shaker Microphone, but I like this one better. And he's the one that came up with the idea of making it into the shape that the Shaker Mad Cat Microphone is these days. And yes, that's the one I use. If I'm going to play through an amp, that's the only mic I ever use.

SPEAKER_00:

And so to finish off now, just asking you about any future plans you've got. So again, on your YouTube channel, you've got this great song for the current situation called the Pandemic Boogie.

SPEAKER_01:

so

SPEAKER_00:

uh so obviously we're in this pandemic time at the moment any plans coming up beyond that or anything you're working on at home

SPEAKER_02:

i'm working on various uh projects um there's a band called the steel drivers and uh It has a guitar player named Jay Lapp, and he lives in Ann Arbor, and we just met recently, and we've been doing some recording together, which it's recording together in two different houses, but we send tracks back and forth. So some of that might make it out into the world someday. I'm no doubt going to make some more solo recordings in my basement and put them out. And I might make some more harmonica teaching videos. I'm not sure. Just see what happens. I have no particular big plan I'm working on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, fantastic. It's been great to speak to you. You're certainly a fantastic player. You've done lots of great things. Thanks very much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it was a delight talking with you. Great. I love your series. I'm looking forward to listening to some of the back podcasts that I haven't heard.

SPEAKER_00:

That's it for today, folks. Final word from my sponsor, the Longwolf Blues Company, providing some great effects pedals and microphones, all purpose-built for the harmonica. Be sure to check out their website. My cat, take us home.

UNKNOWN:

Woof, woof, woof.