Cy Leo interview

Cy Leo joins me on episode 48.
Leo is from Hong Kong, where he started learning to play classical chromatic harmonica from age 6, under the direction of his father, who is an accomplished player himself, having won the ensemble category at the 1997 World Harmonica Championship with his quintet, helping to raise interest in the harmonica throughout Asia.
Leo quickly gained recognition in his own right, winning the World Championship youth category at age 15 before taking the adult crown at age 19.
Still only 27, Leo has built on his early success with some notable studio sessions and two albums under his own name. Leo also spent a few years on cruise ships which helped him hone his stagecraft.
Currently living in New York, Leo is studying Jazz Performance at NYU. And watch out on your TV screens for Leo as he is about to audition for America’s Got Talent!

Links:

Leo's website:
https://www.cyleomusic.com/

Kings Harmonica Quintet:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpKi1oSXOlTpHkyWSRzlFsQ

Ginger Muse record label:
https://www.gingermuse.com/

Love of Chromatic Harmonica book:
http://mastersofharmonica.com/slide/love-chromatic-harmonica-5/

Cremona chromatic:
http://www.workshop-cremona.com/service.html

Pollestad chromatic:
http://www.polle.no/munnspi3.html

Microphone:
https://www.lewitt-audio.com/microphones/mtp-live/mtp-740-cm

Videos:

World Championship entry 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq3PuVLxZTM

Playing Flight of the Bumble Bee on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRmk1ZPSjXc

Performing at Chinese New Year celebrations in London:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOMGDuRNwE&t=170s

Song with Sandy Lam:
https://youtu.be/IaMI0Zb2kKk

Tuition video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQypPEs4ksc


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

Chapters

• 1:07 From Hong Kong but now currently in New York
• 1:18 Comes from musical family, with a father who plays harmonica
• 1:30 Started out learning classical harmonica music
• 2:14 Father’s harmonica quintet won a competition at World harmonica festival in 1997, gaining recognition for Asian harmonica
• 2:33 Leo grew up to witness this rise in Asian harmonica popularity via father’s quintet
• 2:59 Leo started playing harmonica age 6. Father took a photo of him with harmonica day he was born
• 3:11 How Leo learnt from the classical chromatic recordings and teacher
• 4:51 Hong Kong government started supporting harmonica community due to success at Trossingen, which led other Asian countries to follow their lead
• 6:03 Popularity of the harmonica in Asia now, with chromatic being more popular than diatonic, inspired by Tommy Reilly
• 7:40 The current harmonica festivals in Asia
• 9:16 At 27 years of age, Leo is the youngest interviewee on the podcast so far
• 9:50 Leo’s classical training helped develop his amazing technique on the harmonica
• 11:39 Leo first tried improvising when put on stage with a blues band at school
• 14:48 Has won numerous competitions, which were an important part of his development
• 17:07 At what stage did Leo decide to become a full-time musician
• 18:03 Spent a lot of time busking while at university
• 18:25 Recorded with first well known singer in Asia at age 19
• 19:00 Leo spent a few years playing on cruise ships, which helped his stagecraft
• 23:50 First album from Leo was Lost In Time in 2019
• 26:21 Released a pop single in 2019, I Won’t Let You Go, where Leo sings
• 28:16 Angel and Demon album released in 2020, all originals written by Leo about the social movement recently in Hong Kong
• 32:38 Released the album Smash Originals on his own label, Ginger Muse, and his need to forge his own path
• 36:10 Away single, is a tribute to his recently passed grandmother, which incorporates strings
• 37:23 Breathless single is more experimental with the use of effects on the harmonica
• 38:29 Recorded with various well known Hong Kong artists
• 39:22 Leo’s music has appeared on various commercials in Hong Kong, and some film soundtracks
• 40:04 Recently moved to New York to expand his musical horizons, and is studying Jazz Performance at NYU
• 41:52 Teaching videos on YouTube and used to run the Hong Kong City University harmonica team, but now wants to focus on being a performer
• 43:05 10 minute question
• 43:35 How Leo practises improvisation
• 44:24 How Leo approaches composition
• 45:29 Cremona chromatic is now instrument of choice
• 47:44 Doesn’t do his own harmonica maintenance
• 48:56 Plays a 16 hole chromatic since seriously studying jazz
• 50:12 Only plays C tuned chromatic
• 50:24 Diatonic model of choice
• 51:29 Embouchre: demos use of tongue block and pucker for different effects
• 53:05 Microphones
• 53:30 Effects pedals: has been exploring them recently
• 55:16 Uses wireless mic on stage when moving around a lot
• 55:35 Future plans
• 56:18 Just auditioned for America’s Got Talent TV show

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

See why Leo joins me on episode 48. Leo is from Hong Kong where he started learning to play classical chromatic harmonica from age 6 under the direction of his father who is an accomplished player himself having won the ensemble category at the 1997 World Harmonica Championship with his quintet helping to raise interest in the harmonica throughout Asia. Leo quickly gained recognition in his own right winning the world championship youth category at age 15 before taking the adult crown at age 19. Still only 20 In 1927, Leo was built on his early success with some notable studio sessions and two albums under his own name. Leo also spent some time on cruise ships to help him hone his stagecraft. Now living in New York, Leo is studying jazz performance at New York University. And watch out on your TV screens for Leo as he is about to audition for America's Got Talent. So hello CY Leo and welcome to the podcast. Hello, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to have you on. So a little bit about your background. So you're from Hong Kong originally, but I think you're living in New York now, yeah? Yes, that's true. What was your music development like in Hong Kong and what got you started playing the harmonica?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18

I was born in quite a musical family, especially my dad is also a harmonica player. My mother is a French horn player. I was highly influenced by my father and both my parents, of course, to get in touch with classical music. And more specifically, it was classical harmonica music, as my father is a fan of basically all kinds of classical music, including all the legendary records that were made by players like Tommy Riley, Larry Adler, Sigmund Gruffen, Harmonica Kids, Ella Trios. We have all kinds of different records at home. So that's the music that I was born and raised listening to. And then because my father also has a harmonica quintet called the King's Harmonica

SPEAKER_02: 2:00

Quintet. Bye.

SPEAKER_01: 2:14

The time that I was born, it was basically the time that they were most active as they were preparing for the World Harmonica Festival. By that time, it was 1997. It was also the first few Asians that has approached to the international harmonica community by that time. So it was quite a remarkable time for Asian harmonica community. And that's the time that I was born. So I witnessed how they have gained recognition in the international harmonica community through a lot of classical harmonica practice. And then when I started officially learning it around six years old, I kind of have a pretty clear idea of where I'm headed.

SPEAKER_00: 2:59

So I understand, like you say, you started at age six. I understand your father took a photograph of you when you were born holding a harmonica. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01: 3:06

Yes, yes,

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

that's right. Great. So even from birth, you had the harmonica in your hand. Of these records that you were listening to, like you say, all the great chromatic play, Is that something you tried to start to learn to play along with when you were that young age?

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

I was listening and my first teacher, of course, my father tried to teach me, but then he figures it's not the most ideal way as he's a professional. So it would cause harm to the relationship. So my teacher is actually my father's teacher as well. And the repertoire that he gave me, he introduced to me is also highly influenced by those players. So I didn't particularly like play the Spivakovsky harmonica concerto at first you know I didn't have the ability but I was heading that direction through a lot of like some Bach attitudes at the very beginning or you know just playing like the Beethoven like those kind

SPEAKER_00: 3:59

of stuff. Was the one record that you remember you particularly liked at that age with the harmonica on?

SPEAKER_01: 4:04

When I was younger I remember as a family we always travel to different places and we have road trips all the time. We would listen to so many harmonica records and I remember sometimes the record by Sigmund Gruven would still come up to my mind like he kind of played some Beatles tributes in in one of the records

SPEAKER_00: 4:37

Like you say, you were born at a time when your father and his King's Harmonica Quintet started getting some recognition for the Asian scene. So what happened there? Did they go over to Europe or was that when some of the Asian festivals started up?

SPEAKER_01: 4:50

I think because they won the prizes in the World Harmonica Festival and then in Hong Kong, basically the government was really pleased to hear the news and started giving us a lot of support. And also I think that inspired a lot of other countries in Asia about like, I I guess a goal for the harmonists to go for. So let's say the Taiwanese players started knowing about the World Harmonica Festival. They kind of set it as like the ultimate goal of a harmonist's career or say, you know, pursue. And, you know, it happens to Japan as well. And it happens to Malaysia, Singapore as well. So it was a time when a lot of Asian harmonica community started getting some solid direction where we're heading. And because of the place I was born, Hong Kong, it has so much government support since my father's quintet got some recognitions. So I felt like the way that I was born and raised and educated and being supported by my environment was very fortunate. Like everything was a blessing.

SPEAKER_00: 5:58

Yeah, absolutely. You were obviously born in the right place at the right time, but I

SPEAKER_01: 6:02

hadn't

SPEAKER_00: 6:02

put that time with it. So in Asia now, the harmonica is a very popular instrument. Yeah, I think there's a lots of young people playing harmonica. Is that the case?

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

Yes. In fact, it is still an underrated instrument. Most people still recognize it as, you know, one of those toy instruments. But we do have a bigger community right now and we do have more and more talented players. I would say there are more professional players or at least players at professional standards that has arised since maybe 10 years ago from

SPEAKER_00: 6:32

Asia. Are there more chromatic players in Asia than maybe than diatonic? Because obviously in the Western in Europe and the US. Probably most people play the diatonic. What's it like in Asia?

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

Yes, in fact, we mainly focus on chromatic harmonica. For Hong Kong, I know the reason. For other countries, I'm not exactly sure. But for Hong Kong, because around the 40s, we have a harmonist from Hong Kong who went to the States and to learn from Tommy Raleigh, the legend himself.

UNKNOWN: 7:05

piano plays Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 7:16

That's actually when the harmonica culture started in Hong Kong. He came back to Hong Kong and he started bringing the Tommy Raleigh's approach to everyone in Hong Kong. He started a harmonica orchestra, an association called the YMCA. Since then, we were focusing on classical music and chromatic harmonica. It goes all the way back to the 40s or even 30s.

SPEAKER_00: 7:40

So what about the festivals? So there's two big festivals that I know of in Asia. Of course, there's the Asia Pacific and I think the Seoul International Harmonica Festival as well yeah so there are festivals that you've been to you know how long they've been running and they started after like you say Trottingen in the late 90s when your father went over they started after then

SPEAKER_01: 7:58

there was one time there was the World Harmonica Festival and then the players from Asia were not pleased by the result of the competition and then they just grouped together representatives from Malaysia from Japan from Hong Kong from Singapore you know these people grouped together and figured oh why not we create one for asia i think that happened around like 20 to 30 years ago and then that happens once every two years the one that happened in hong kong we we have attracted like at least like 3 000 audience throughout the whole festival and then the one that happened in taiwan was huge as well i think the audience was around 3 000 as well which is which is pretty crazy every concert packed and you can see harmonica players in that area all the time like when you in the restaurant like I was listening to harmonica music like every day the harmonica sound just keep running in my head after an entire month because I had too much of the harmonica sound by the festival

SPEAKER_00: 8:58

yeah and again is this mainly chromatics or is a big mixture of different sorts of harmonicas

SPEAKER_01: 9:03

they do have different categories but then I think most of us focus on the chromatic and also the chord based harmonica ensemble which is one of the strength of Taiwan Malaysia harmonica culture So

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

I think, are you 27 years old now, Leo?

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 9:21

Yeah, so I believe you may well be the youngest person I've had on the podcast. Oh, really? But by no means does that reflect on your fantastic virtuosity and your technical ability on the harmonic.

UNKNOWN: 9:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 9:50

going back to how you learned like you say you initially had classical lessons but we'll get on to obviously you're you're very interested in pushing the boundaries now and playing different sorts of genres on the on the marmonica but you started off playing classical yeah and i think is that the grounding you think where where you developed your technique where you know you're able to do these amazing things you can on the chromatic

SPEAKER_01: 10:09

yes in fact i think my classical training was very very important as my foundation to learn any kind of other genres in my later career because the idea of what music I should play on harmonica was implanted very early by my father's influence. So I figured if I'm playing the harmonica, I should be playing the oboe concerto, you know, the double violin concerto by Bach. And they would practice all these ensemble strings quartets repertoire written by Sosakovich, Deforshak, Tchaikovsky. For me, it is normal to play something like that. If I couldn't play it, that means I'm not good enough. But I know that is not the case for most players around the world even. Because yeah, most people from the Western, I think they started playing the chromatic harmonica because of Toots or Stevie Wonder, most of them. Let's say from Asia, most of the players started because of some pop singers. We have a guy called Wong Zim in Hong Kong, and he was really influential in the 80s. And that's how people usually started. They listen to pop music or maybe music in the movie. And then they started picking up the harmonica. What they really wanted to do at the very beginning was usually something much more simple. But then the way I started, I already have a totally different perception of how the harmonica should sound like since I was in my early age.

SPEAKER_00: 11:39

So clearly at this age, you're reading the music here. So again, we'll get into the different genres that you've got involved of shortly but so at what point did you then sort of start branching away from just reading you know were you trying to improvise and play different sorts of music at an early age too or

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

in fact that happens to me at around 15 years old around 16 years old uh there was there was one time my school uh there's a program in my school that we bring different guests to as speakers to share different cultures you know sometimes we have like dancing artists sometimes we have painting artists and That particular time, we have a blues band in the house. They ask every class to pick one person who is most musically gifted and then to go on stage. There were five of us. And then they just give us one scale, which is the blues scale. And then they just started playing. They just started grooving, playing in shuffles, playing a blues groove underneath. And then we had to improvise with that scale one by one. I was like, okay, that's cool, but I have no idea how to do it. So at first I was just doing like... You know, and then eventually I feel like, oh, I think this scale is pretty easy. So I just started creating some patterns on the spot, like... My other classmates were not as into it. They were like, okay, I'm not sure what to do. And maybe because harmonica is meant to be so highly related to the blues sound, I think it's a little easier for me because there was like violinist there. And then for the harmonica, it just goes well with the band naturally. And then the band started encouraging me to do more as my classmates usually just play for maybe like 15 seconds and then they stop. And then the band ask me to oh yeah just keep going just keep going so that was the first time I improvised and it was really fun I was exploring like the blues note and now I feel like oh so that's why the blues note come from you know I started thinking

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

about it so did this get you interested in blues harmonica because obviously you do play some diatonic don't you and I know it's not your main instrument but you know you do play some diatonic don't you

SPEAKER_01: 14:02

yes I do it's just for like almost like a show show instrument for me wow

UNKNOWN: 14:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

But did you start exploring blues harmonica players at that point? Was that part your influence, or did you not really go there?

SPEAKER_01: 14:30

I've always been a loyal person, so I discovered this kind of bluesy sound of the harmonica, but then I still wanted to be sticking to my origin, sticking to the chromatic harmonica. Even though I was exploring the blues, I was still trying to play it on the chromatic.

SPEAKER_00: 14:48

Going a little bit back to the Asian scene and the way that you developed through it, I think there's a culture of competitions, isn't there, in Asia? So you've won various competitions from quite a young age, didn't you? I think you won your first at the age of 10 at the Asia Pacific Festival.

SPEAKER_01: 15:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 15:04

Do you remember what you played there?

SPEAKER_01: 15:05

Well, I played something like... Something like that. I

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

forgot if it is the right key as well. Yeah. And then you mentioned Trossingen a few times. So you won your first World Harmonica Championships at the age of 19 in Trossingen, yeah? My first was 15. Was that the classical section or on the chromatic?

SPEAKER_01: 15:33

Yes, it was the youth category

SPEAKER_00: 15:35

in the classical chromatic. Right, the youth category, yeah. So was it when you were 19, was that the adult category? Yeah. Yes, that was the test piece category. You won at the Asia Pacific again in 2012. So you've won various competitions. And again, I think that was part of the development in Asia was I think there is quite a culture of competitions there isn't and that's one of the you know ways that help you develop

SPEAKER_01: 16:12

yeah yeah i think the main reason is that in asia we don't really have legends like toots like stevie even when we go way back we don't have legends like lariatla we don't have legends like tom nurali so we're not really educated like the majority of people even the cultured community they have no idea like how a good harmonica player can do so qualification from the western world or you know from a bigger community organization it's really important to for us to prove ourselves to the society of what we're capable of yeah so that's basically why we were competing all the time yeah because we have no way to prove ourselves no other way even we release something and they they would not pay attention to us

SPEAKER_00: 17:01

but it's a good way to do it as well it's good motivation to to get a piece up to standard as well isn't it definitely yes so I understand your first degree when you attended university there in Hong Kong was a non-music related degree. So what stage did you decide to become a professional musician?

SPEAKER_01: 17:19

Well, I've always wanted to be a professional musician. But in reality, there's no harmonist that is living a career that I wanted back then in Hong Kong. Because most of the harmonists that continue to be a full-time harmonica player would be educators instead of performer or you know live recording players and I love teaching too sometimes but my main goal would be performing recording and composing so you know it is really tough because no one have ever done that before so I choose occupational therapy as my first degree just as my plan B in case I you know I can't survive as a harmonicist eventually I was you know during my university life I was busking a lot I was playing with a bunch of different musicians. And I also, you know, during the time, I also won that prize in the World Harmonica Festival, which helps a lot in my career. So eventually I got media coverage. I was on the news. I was on TV. You know, people start recognizing me. My first recording for a pop singer who is really huge in Asia was when I was 19. That was like a semi jazz record.

SPEAKER_00: 18:33

What was the name of the recording and the artist?

SPEAKER_01: 18:35

The artist is called Sandy Lang. Thank

SPEAKER_02: 18:43

you.

SPEAKER_00: 18:55

So yeah, great. So as you're saying, you started getting recognition, you started getting a name. I know that another thing which was important in your development was working on cruise ships and playing on cruise ships.

SPEAKER_01: 19:08

Okay, that's actually the main reason how I could survive as a full-time harmonist, because I actually got... a cold call from the state probably half a year before I graduate. And then as there's a cruise agent whose name is David, who was trying to learn the harmonica. And then he was reading the book called The Love of the Chromatic Harmonica. And I was featured in one of the chapters. And he spotted me there and he figured, oh, maybe I can get this kid to perform on the cruise as they were developing the Asian market. It was the first few years that they developed it. So yeah, I was recruited. as the performer. And they have booked me for like half a year, different contracts, usually contracts by days, like five to seven days usually. And then I was fully booked after my graduation. So I was at work right when I graduated.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

Great. And I think I've seen that this is where you maybe learned your stagecraft as well. You've got a strong element to entertaining when you're playing and that's something you developed when you were working on the cruise ships.

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

Yeah, because my agent is a is the world champion of the juggling competition when he was younger he's like a you know cross-genre artist he sings as well he do a little bit of stand-up comedy in his show basically he's like the perfect most ideal guy the cruise ship industry could ever ask for and he was worried that I would be you know too kind of artistic for the cruise industry because there's a culture in cruise performance industry so he basically it gave me a lot of different sections of guidance to guide me through oh how you should talk on stage how you should move on stage to make sure I get a good rating which would be nice for him as well so I get more bookings yeah in that way I was evaluating a lot on how how to present myself

SPEAKER_00: 21:05

on stage you sort of dance on stage as well whilst you're playing the chromatic yeah which is which for a chromatic player is probably reasonably unusual so but but good to see you know that entertainment element

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

yeah yeah I'm a fan of my Michael Jackson. I learned some of the move when I have so much extra time on the cruise.

SPEAKER_00: 21:21

Yeah, Michael Jackson. I know you did a version of Human Nature, which is a great song, of course, which Miles Davis did on trumpet. And then Stevie Wonder did it on harmonica as well, didn't they? That's a great one. I was delighted to hear you playing the Human Nature. So as you say, working on cruise ships got you some paid work here, which was great. I think that was hit a little bit when the pandemic arrived, was it? You were working on those until the pandemic came.

SPEAKER_01: 21:57

Exactly, exactly. Actually, before the pandemic, around that time, I was already starting to feel something different about playing on the cruise. It was really cool to begin with, playing on the cruise as my career. I got to play with tons of musicians, so much experience of short rehearsal time to give up a full show you know I could work on my craft of stage presentation and so and so but then eventually I felt like it's not exactly the career that I should be sticking with especially at that age because in a cruise career even on ships like Royal Caribbean they have like thousand seats for one show if you perform for three nights four nights you're basically performing for four thousand people but I all observed that even I maybe I could make some CD sales but most of the cruise passenger wouldn't follow you after the show you know you're just one of the entertainment the many entertainments that happen on the ship and you know it feels like another dimension almost that you have you know a great audience great crowd great result on the ship once you're back on the land you feel like oh no one knows what you were doing and that you didn't accumulate anything by those except the personal experience you can't accumulate your fans there you don't accumulate your exposure you don't you know you don't you don't accumulate your popularity you know so i feel like at this age i should be exploring something further on the land especially yeah because i feel i felt

SPEAKER_00: 23:39

trapped in that career so we'll get on to um some of your your music releases now and i think you've had two albums out and various Lost in Time

SPEAKER_01: 24:08

basically my debut project that has a show and the album. You know, I actually thought about that concept for five years until I made it happen. The concept was that I feel like I need some popular tunes to catch people's attention. And also, you know, on the same time, I want the depth in the music. So I was working with two really talented arrangers in Hong Kong. that had the ability to turn popular tunes into something more complex, probably with the influence of jazz and classical. Particularly for this album, I think it's mainly influenced by fusion jazz music. There was some complexity in the arrangement, and there are open sections for solos. I think that's the first kind of sound that I created, and I want people to perceive me as a cross-genre instrumentalist.

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

Yeah, and I mentioned that there's quite a few obviously we've already mentioned human nature that's on this album there's quite a lot of big arrangements isn't there uh on here it's partly sort of semi-orchestral i need what's going on you've got as the soul song so It's kind of quite a heavy rock sort of sound to it, rock guitar. Yes. Yeah, and you also do Danny Boy, which is obviously traditionally a famous harmonica, well played by harmonica players. We're all harmonica fans, so... so yeah an interesting choice in there and as you say various um you know sort of cross genre on there are definitely coming through so at this stage then um this was uh 2019 yes or sort of released two years ago yeah and then then between between your next album i certainly saw that you'd released a single as well called i won't let you go was that under your own name or were you performing with someone else there

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

so throughout my career i have been exploring a lot like different things there's something on the side i would say uh that single that i'm It is a singer-songwriter project.

SPEAKER_00: 26:42

Are you the vocalist on that?

SPEAKER_01: 26:43

Yeah, I sang and I wrote the song.

SPEAKER_02: 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:00

And I co-arranged the piece with a producer in Hong Kong. As I was exploring, as I was trying to, you know, get harmonica popularized in Hong Kong, I was really trying different ways. And I always feel like it's really hard, especially in Hong Kong, to be an instrumentalist because people pay attention more on the lyrics. And we, as I said, we don't have legends that exist in our culture, especially as instrumentalists. I guess the most popular figures that people know would be Yo and then Yun Di Li and Lang Lang and that's it they don't know anyone else in Hong Kong like for the majority of people so that's why I started trying to explore singing as well because there would be lyrics and there would be the format that people are more comfortable listening to but since it's more like a side project and it's not really financed by anyone but me so I couldn't really keep it going so much. It just happened on the side, you know, when I feel like there's a tune that is really complete and I want it released and I would put it on.

SPEAKER_00: 28:09

It's cool that you did some vocals though, because obviously, so your next album, the Angel and Demon album, again, it's instrumental, isn't it? I think. And then this album, as we mentioned, it's got a bit more classical feel to it. It's not all classical, is it? But it's more of a classical feel to the album. And there's some quite heavy effects on the harmonic as well. Is that something you were experimenting with?

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

Yes, yes. This is my first original album so basically all the tunes was written by myself i think the trigger point of me turning from a player to a composer was actually what happened in hong kong because the social movement in hong kong that happened two years ago was really influential i think to anyone who from hong kong you know it changed all the perception we have you know we were thinking so much about right and wrong all these philosophical questions as the politics get chaotic so this album was heavily influenced by that period of time I would see this as an outlet of my emotion instability during that time such as Tears Tears is a tune that I wrote right after the protest happened like the day after that was like 12th of June in 2019 and yeah it was tough if you listen to the music there are a lot of elements subtle elements added you know you can hear the sound of tear gas in the middle of the section of the of tears and then you can hear the sound of a bullet dropping sound at the end of the track so It has some implication on every different tracks. And that was my main inspiration. As I started writing, I feel like I was trying to go back to my origin. I was thinking about what kind of sound that kind of represents me, especially as that can reflect my upbringing, my culture and stuff. So I would say this entire album has an oriental sound. If you listen to Eyes Down, the chord progression is very much like a pop tune in Hong i i would say like you know most of my hong kong friends would say ice town is their favorite because the chord progression is something they're so familiar with so But then, as always, I would like to give some depth into the music. So in this middle section of Eyes Down, I would add a section that resembled the feeling of Pirates of the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_00: 31:14

Those kind of stuff. Cool. And I know that before the dawn, I heard you talking about the tone that you'd achieved on that recording. I don't know if this is from the album, but I think that you were particularly pleased with the tone that you'd achieved on that song. And you described it as angelic and getting away from maybe the higher pitched elements of the chromatic and bringing out that real warmth to the tone.

SPEAKER_01: 31:49

Yes, yes. Yeah, I still think it is one of my best ballet work ever released and recorded and produced because I spent a lot of time with the sound engineer to find the right tone, to find the right plug-in. And it turns out I have no idea what he has done because he added like tons of plug-ins into this music. And then he just give, and then he balanced it so well that I have no idea what he has done. But, you know, as the world track I would say the harmonica that I started using two to three years ago no actually maybe four that's the Cremona it really shaped my playing a lot and I think Before the Dawn is the best reflection of how I wanted Cremona sound like as a result

SPEAKER_00: 32:37

yes and then an interesting one I found with you is this Smash Originals are you playing with a saxophone player and a piano player that's a really good album I enjoyed that one a lot and that's on your record label that you've created yourself is a ginger muse

SPEAKER_01: 32:52

yes basically that album is my first work as a producer so I produced the entire album I record everything myself you know I have because the pianist in my band he basically don't base in Hong Kong a lot he would be competing all around the world he's a classical musician and this project is something else for him you know a different outlet for him as well we don't really worked on the social media of this band a lot because all three of us individually we have our own followings timothy the saxophone player he's you know one of the most handsome musician in hong kong and he's got tons of followings in hong kong and and the pianist ka ching wong he has a documentary released in when he was like 17 the director basically like follow him since he was six years old or something so and then and then the movie got great success and he is one of the popular figures in Hong Kong as well. So basically when we create concerts in Hong Kong, we can easily sell over a thousand tickets in a few days. But we never really worked on the social media a

SPEAKER_02: 34:15

lot.

UNKNOWN: 34:15

So

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

on this ginger muse you're is this a label that you're trying to promote sort of young talent obviously you've released this album through there so there are other people on is this a record company that you started up

SPEAKER_01: 34:29

yes so smash this band is is part of ginger muse ginger muse is yeah it's a record label in hong kong and uh we we want to focus on hong kong instrumentalists especially original music so uh in this album smash original these are all uh local composers work and we are a the work through the production and you know i also because throughout my career i was invited a few times by different labels to to join them i was invited by the universal music the warner music and then there was a record label called life nation who actually mentioned that they would like to invest like five millions hong kong dollar into me and to turn me into an edm artist and and they want me to you know play basically edm festival and i gotta dance on stage and and place a bit of harmonica and then do some dj or whatever i've had different opportunities in my career but uh i i feel like all of them are great but they they can't allow me to do what i really want to do on every side of of me you know i want i want to be continuing doing classical music i wanted to continue doing jazz i want to you know collaborate with different artists so i don't want to feel trapped that's the reason i started the own label so I want to gather a few talented instrumentalists in Hong Kong and who also have the entrepreneurship kind of mindset so we can help each other out in terms of the career development

SPEAKER_00: 36:02

well it's fantastic you're forging your own path particularly as a harmonica player it can never be easy so great great credits if you're that and since the album as well you've had a couple of singles out this year one called Away and one called Breathless

SPEAKER_01: 36:16

so Away was composed when i was first in nyc this year it is the time that my grandma passed away i was quite depressed and i needed an outlet so I was writing the piece for my grandma's funeral. And that's also the first time I used a string quartet arrangement, which was encouraged by my teacher here in NYU. He encouraged me that I could go further to explore different sounds. And he gave me some guidance on strings arrangement. So this is the first time I composed music for this kind of instrumentation.

SPEAKER_00: 37:06

That's great. Of course, Charlie Parker did that, didn't he? He did an album with strings. So you're now doing the same for the chromatic Leo. Good to hear.

SPEAKER_01: 37:12

Yeah, in fact, that is going to be the sound that I'm going to explore in my original projects in the coming one to two years. I've been writing more strings-related pieces. And then the pieces, the breathless pieces, I would say it's just a fun side project as well. It's something like I Won't Let You Go. That morning, I was exploring some lines in 5, and I feel like, oh, maybe I should write an etude so that I can explore all these lines in 5 and to get the feeling right and eventually i wrote it and i posted on social media and people were kind of stunned by by the technicality in it so

SPEAKER_02: 38:01

And

SPEAKER_01: 38:08

then I have a friend who is a film composer here who is now working in the PlayStation. You know, we were hanging out a lot in New York and I was just sharing him the piece and he said, yeah, maybe I can arrange it. I can orchestrate that. And there we go. We have the single released as a fun side project.

SPEAKER_00: 38:29

And you've also recorded with very well-known hong kong artist as well haven't you and uh you know you mentioned sandy lam earlier on so i think your most most streamed song on spotify possibly is beliza with um papachuro oh yes it's uh is that a hong kong artist

SPEAKER_01: 38:45

oh no uh i think that's a brazilian artist i'm not exactly sure so

SPEAKER_00: 38:58

so

SPEAKER_02: 39:02

you

SPEAKER_01: 39:07

yeah i i started having these invitation through social media since a few years back and this is one of the job

SPEAKER_00: 39:14

yeah great so so you're you know you're often invited to play to play on various sort of more pop songs as well with some of these hong kong artists

SPEAKER_02: 39:21

isn't it

SPEAKER_00: 39:22

you've been on various commercials haven't you like the uh the crook champagne is one of them and you've been in a couple of film appearances and sort of tv appearances in in hong kong is uh are you well known in hong kong now uh yeah i

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

would say i would say so like uh i've been I've been sticking around for a long time because I started going out on street performing when I was like 15. And then because in Hong Kong, we do this kind of like winners concert after all the competitions. So I started performing since I was 10. I got my first commercial gig when I was like 12. I performed for Mont Blanc. So yeah, I've been sticking around too long that I can't be, you know, I'm recognized in Hong Kong.

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

But now you're in New York. Are you just visiting or have you moved to New York?

SPEAKER_01: 40:09

Yeah, I came to New York early this year because basically I think because of pandemic. So I lost all my jobs as I was focusing mainly as a performer, not even teaching a lot. So when the pandemic first hit, I was unemployed for a few months. And even when I was employed, I was employed by myself, by the projects that I created. I was more of an entrepreneur. I was organizing. concerts for the musician in Hong Kong. I was finding ways to survive financially. And then I figured, well, maybe now is the best time for me to get away and to further my study and to further my career as well. Because as I mentioned, in Hong Kong, we have such a small market for instrumentalists. So I feel like if I really want to step into the biggest stage that can be more influential, I feel like the Big Apple is where I have to head.

SPEAKER_00: 41:04

Definitely, yeah. So are you trying to tap into the great jazz scene there is that an area that you're you know that you're using in New York

SPEAKER_01: 41:11

yes in fact I'm trying to replicate what I've done in Hong Kong like right now what I'm doing is you know how I've developed in Hong Kong I have musicians that play different repertoires different genres of music with me I have I've worked with classical musician I collab with you know pop kind of instrumentalist I'm a grad student now at NYU majoring in jazz performance that's also a big part of myself you know getting in touch with the jazz communities in here yeah I'm trying to step into different areas of music and to develop this kind of cross genre career

SPEAKER_00: 41:49

well we definitely look forward to what you're coming out with and you mentioned teaching earlier on so you've got some tuition tuition videos on YouTube I'll put some link up to those and you also help run the Hong Kong City University harmonica team as well is that something you're still involved with from from across in New York

SPEAKER_01: 42:07

Well, I actually stepped back a few years ago. I was hired to start the harmonica orchestra there. So I spent about three years there to start teaching new students to play the harmonica. And then eventually we play as an ensemble and then we play as an orchestra and then we go to competitions. And then after the orchestra is set up, I just stepped back because I, you know, I always think that being an educator is nice, but it also consumed the time for me as an artist to create you know to compose and to play better you know to have better lines in my jazz playing and stuff so it's always a trade-off and i feel like at this stage of me i i really want to explore even further to to see my potential before i really start educating telling people about my thoughts and because maybe i can i can be better before i start teaching

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

on that line so a question ask each time there was if you had time 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_01: 43:11

Well, for me, if I have 10 minutes right now, I would choose to just improvise around, just create whatever that come up in my mind right now. But if you ask this question a year ago, I would say I would go for the Bach cello suite, number one. But yeah, right now I am really indulged in jazz music. So I've been focusing a lot on improvisation. So I would definitely spend that.

SPEAKER_00: 43:35

So when you are, you know, working on your improvisation, now or are you thinking about chord sequences and playing over those are you you know sort of playing over backing tracks to do that to you know on your jazz practice how do you approach that

SPEAKER_01: 43:47

you know I have always been playing along tracks since I started exploring blues and jazz music on my own at first I started playing with all the pop tunes that I know and then I just play along and then I eventually I stepped into jazz and I play with backing tracks on YouTube but right now I feel like what I was lacking in my training is to develop the independence of improvisation without anything to support or maybe just the metronome so that's what i've been working on i would practice with the metronome or even without and play through the changes of standards instead of having the backing track

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

yeah just talking a little bit about your composing so when you're composing i know that you use the harmonica a lot to to do that initially didn't you and i think you know maybe you branched out a little bit more from that now so how do you approach your composing

SPEAKER_01: 44:36

for the album I wrote everything first on harmonica. But since I came to New York, I have had a few really brilliant teachers. And they have enlightened me in various ways. They opened the mind of mine of orchestration, like of using different colors. So right now, I would have a few different ways of composition. There's one way that's mathematical. I've learned writing it with some kind of modern compositional techniques, such as the 12-tone interval technique. technique that involves a lot of calculation. And, you know, there must be some musical judgment, but so much mathematical count. And then the other way is to start on the harmony first, you know, start on a piano first, coming up with the chord progression before I proceed. That's something I was not used to doing too.

SPEAKER_00: 45:26

So I'll get into the last section now, which is talking about gear a little bit more. You mentioned earlier on that you've now moved to playing the Cremona chromatic harmonica. Now, this is a chromatic I understand is developed in in Asia, isn't it? And it's a high-end chromatic harmonica. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 45:41

The maker is called Kichi-san. We call him Kichi-san. He's from Japan, independent harmonica manufacturer. The material that is possible on the Cremona could be silver and wood. I forgot the exact material of the wood. The reed that they use is a modified reed plate, I think from the Horner 64. The combination I love most is to have the wooden comb and the wooden cover plate. and then with the silver mouthpiece, with the silver slice. There's a silver plate in the inside of the cover plate as well. So it gives a better projection of the harmonica, even as it is made of wood.

SPEAKER_00: 46:20

So this is quite an expensive chromatic. I think, if I'm right, it costs something like 3,000 UK pounds. 3,000 euros, is it? Yeah, so not a cheap harmonica. I think it's great to hear that people are making instruments at that cost, because obviously lots of other instruments cost that, and a lot more trying it out first is the thing did you get to try this one out before you got

SPEAKER_01: 46:41

one i did try it out in some asia pacific harmonica festivals because we have usually after all those competitions and the drink and whatever we would have like late night hang where the manufacturers from everywhere would gather harmonica lovers and to you know get in one room and then to try all those models so that was one of the nights that i've i tried a harmonica and i feel like wow is amazing and then I think the other day my father bought two of them for himself so I got to try it as well and then I remember probably I think the first one that I used was a gift by Kichisound yeah he gave me one as a gift and I bought one as a spare harmonica and then the one I'm using right now oh in fact I'm using two of them right now they are both gifts from Kichisound because they are modified version

SPEAKER_00: 47:34

and do they take you know like old chromatic they need a little bit of care and attention to be playing well is that something that you do yourself or do you send it back to Kichishan to do that for you?

SPEAKER_01: 47:45

For the caring so to be honest I'm not the best harmonica maintainer in Hong Kong I always have a few friends that are harmonica full time harmonica musician in Hong Kong but they focus more on education and I always have them to repair they are almost like the guitar tech you see in John Mayer's show and then in my show I would have all these old friends helping me out like usually tuning up my harmonica like right before my shows and stuff but right now I'm on my own in New York so the way I manage it is to I actually bought six pairs of reed plates from Kichisound and I bought you know I have two harmonica with me one as a spare and as my experience tell from last semester I only broke two reeds the way I play now is very very subtle So I only brought two reeds. So yeah, that's how I keep my harmonica active.

SPEAKER_00: 48:42

Well, great. Yeah, I mean, I've heard some good things about these. I know William Gallison, I think you met recently William Gallison, didn't you, in New York? I know he was raving about this chromatic too. So yeah, it'd be great to try one. I'd like to buy one, but yeah, that's an expensive purchase. Yeah, it'd be great to have. So you play a 16-hole chromatic now. Have you always played a 16-hole?

SPEAKER_01: 49:01

In fact, I started with 12 holes and then I switched to the masterclass by Horner and after that my father bought me the polystat from Norway I think it's the best 12-hole chromatic harmonica especially for classical music I am so in love with the harmonica even up till now but the only reason I have switched to a 16-hole is when I started playing more jazz and as I do more transcription of let's say Charlie Parker's or John Coltrane you know the tenor saxophone basically have to go one octave lower than the 12-hole harmonica so yeah that's when I started realizing, oh, if I want to play jazz, I think I have to switch to 16-hole.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

Did you not have any problems navigating the larger instrument? I mean, because I think a lot of people playing jazz, you know, it feels a bit more, you can move more quickly and know where you are on the 12-hole. I guess you didn't have any problems with that.

SPEAKER_01: 49:53

Yeah, I had the problem as well. So I spent probably a few months to adjust to it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:59

But yeah, but worth it. Yeah, great. And nice and responsive. Because I think the other thing about the 16-hole is the bottom octave can not always be that responsive. But I guess the Cremona is great all across the range and it's nice and responsive in that bottom octave as well. It is. So do you just play a C-tuned chromatic?

SPEAKER_01: 50:15

Yes. As Tom Rirali used to insist, this is what I would like to insist as well, to play everything on the C harmonica.

SPEAKER_00: 50:23

So when you do play diatonics, what brand of diatonics do you play?

SPEAKER_01: 50:28

I'm super random. As I said, diatonic harmonica for me is almost like a social instrument. And at home we have over a hundred harmonica so the one that I am using is by Horner the XB40 just because I found it in the drawer of my father's And I feel like this is powerful enough. I can play it on the streets.

SPEAKER_00: 50:52

Yeah, it's loud, isn't it? But that's the all-bending diatonic, of course, which is kind of like a chromatic. So is that one of the other reasons that you chose that one as well? I think so. I think so. Yeah. Do you play a standard sort of Richter-tuned ten-hole diatonic? I think so.

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

As

SPEAKER_01: 51:12

you can see, I can't even do the upper octave well. Like...

SPEAKER_00: 51:21

Yeah. That sounds good. Sounds like you definitely got that bluesy sound, which not all chromatic players get on the diatonic. Yeah. And what about the embouchure you're using? I think you like to use both tongue blocking and puckering, don't you?

SPEAKER_01: 51:35

Yeah, I am an advocate of a hybrid playing. So as long as there's different ways that I can create different colors, I would dig into that.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

Yeah, so when you're playing, what decision do you make to use tongue blocking and which to use puckering?

SPEAKER_01: 51:49

I think tongue blocking for me it has this kind of more fuller body sound. It has a more stable tone color. So when I do phrasing, especially in classical music, legato phrasing, I feel like the tongue blocking position can create that kind of tone color that I'm going for. And then if I am doing a paca, there are mainly two advantages of it. I think playing with paca makes me play faster because there's less resistance with the mouth and the mouthpiece. So basically, again, I can move around the harmonica faster. So I play faster as well. And then the second nice thing about playing paca is the tongue movement that is freed up. So I can do tongue vibrato if I play paca. And that is extremely important as well. And it creates this kind of deep sorrow kind of tone color. And then if I do it with tongue block, I can mostly do it with a hand vibrato. So yeah, that's my consideration. And also the switch corner too. Like if I need to apply the switch corner technique, then I have to do it with tongue block.

SPEAKER_00: 53:03

And a bit more about gear. What about what microphone do you like to use? Right now for recording, I'm

SPEAKER_01: 53:08

using a Lewitt MTP740CM. It is like a condenser mic. in the shape of a dynamic microphone that's the reason I love it because I can use it in a show because sometimes I perform in a handheld position and then when I record at home it has the quality of a great condenser microphone but then recently I have been exploring using more pedals but I wouldn't say I'm an expert on any yet because it is expensive so I haven't explored so much I guess I would take some more time to explore that for effects I mainly mess around with logic building plugin if you listen to let's say engine demon detract despair so I have added some octave pedal, some overdrive, some flangers effect. You know, I mix off everything into it. I feel like it's kind of where I want to go in my later music making as well. I would like to have this kind of futuristic sound as well.

SPEAKER_00: 54:29

For effects, you just like to use a bit of delay, a bit of reverb play when you're performing.

SPEAKER_01: 54:34

Yeah, generally, I would say even just reverb. Yeah, seldom I need delay, but I'm very particular about the length of the reverb. You can hear it in Before the Dawn and Away, the reverb that I'm going for.

SPEAKER_00: 55:14

Yeah, sure. And we talked about you being quite active on stage. You like to use a wireless microphone. Some of the time for that, do you?

SPEAKER_01: 55:22

Yeah, especially when I have the dent.

SPEAKER_00: 55:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 55:24

Yeah, that's the only way, only possible way.

SPEAKER_00: 55:27

Any particular wireless setup you're using?

SPEAKER_01: 55:29

I would say the Shure is fine.

SPEAKER_00: 55:32

Great. And then final question then, Leo. Thanks so much for your time. And obviously, you know, we've talked about, you know, it's the pandemic now, you're in New York and, you know, any particular future plans, you know, are you working on, you know, playing more in the New York scene, getting a new album out maybe?

SPEAKER_01: 55:45

Yeah. So the upcoming plans in New York, I'll be doing my original album in the style lot of jazz and then when I'm back in Hong Kong I'll be doing a another show after Lost in Time like four years later in June next year so it's gonna be a cross-genre show I will sing and as well probably dance a little as well you know I will almost perform like a pop singer but then there will be also a lot of instrumental pieces that I compose that involve in the show so that's something to be looking forward to and finally I actually just got back from American Got Talents that i'll be auditioning next month so maybe that's something i'll be doing as well so we'll see

SPEAKER_00: 56:28

oh fantastic yeah we'll watch out for you on that yeah good luck

SPEAKER_01: 56:31

yeah thank you

SPEAKER_00: 56:32

yeah no that'd be great it would be great for you if you can uh if you can do well on that and give the harmonica some exposure there was a diatonic player on there i know i know he's great yeah yeah so it'd be great if you get on there and get some exposure for the chromatic yeah we'll all watch that with interest yeah that'd be fantastic definitely so thanks so much for joining me today cy leo thank you That's episode 48 of the podcast. Thanks again so much for listening and thanks to Leo for his wonderful music and these words of wisdom. Creating the podcast is a real labour of love for me. I love the harmonica and I'm sure you all do too, but it does cost me money to run the podcast. So I've just put up a PayPal link, which if anyone wanted to make an entirely voluntary donation to help me keep the podcast running, that would be gratefully received. The link is paypal.me slash harmonica happy hour. You can find this on the podcast webpage at the front and on the episodes and on the Facebook page. So any donations are gratefully received, but no worries if not so. Finally over to Leo just to play us out with Lunaria.

SPEAKER_02: 58:08

Thank you.