Rory McLeod interview

Rory Mcleod joins me on episode 49.
Rory is a modern day wandering minstrel . A multi-instrumentalist ‘folk singing’ troubadour, Rory has travelled far and wide, his trusty harmonica (plus an assortment of other instruments) has been with him every step of the way, including working as a musical clown in Mexico.
His first band was ‘Have Mercy’, formed jamming in the markets of London alongside Steve Baker and another harmonica player. Rory has jammed and gone onto collaborate with a wide range of different performers around the world, including Michelle Shocked from the US and Australian Aboriginal Kev Carmody. From his travels he has picked up tunes which have armed his harmonica repertoire with complex rhythms and unique angles.
Rory won the Edinburgh Festival Street Busker of the Year and was the Texas Harmonica Champion of 1981.

Links:

Rory's website:
http://www.rorymcleod.com/

Bandcamp page:
https://rorymcleod.bandcamp.com/music

Buy a Sheng Chinese Harmonica:
https://harmonicas-direct.com/product/sheng/

Road Diaries:
http://www.rorymcleod.com/diaries/list.htm

Videos:

Have Mercy ‘Boodlam’ album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOkOZUD9GNg

NHL Festival 2011 with glass and telephone call:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqDqHkA-e2w

Loves Like A Rock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4gFDlm4oe0

Short interview on YouTube: Bluesman don’t really sing about their Grandmas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XPXxQDukBg

Some of the harmonica songs on Rory's albums (including the ones played in the podcast):

Album: Angry Love
Farewell welfare

Album: Kicking the sawdust
Baksheesh
Harmonicas dream

Album: Footsteps and Heartbeats
Love like a Rock
Moments shared
Take me home

Album: Travelling Home
India matea
Black Brown and White

Album: Lullabies for big babies
Come with me when I go
Long lost friend

Album: Mouth to mouth
Miners Picket dance
Sandpaper blues
One track mind  (with have mercy)

Album: Brave Faces
Klezmer tune: The Disciple of the Rabbi from Trisk.
Cut in Pay
Emperor’s new clothes

Album: Swings and Roundabouts
Lassoing the bees

Album: Songs for big little people
Train
Deep breath waltz
Winds March (played on Sheng Zheng)
Balloon dance
Direction song
Feather race

Album: Gusto
Disturbing The comfortable
Galloway girl
Wrong side of the wall

Single:
Didn’t he ramble


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows

Chapters

• 1:35 Born in London, with a Scottish Father and Russian Jewish mother, now living in Scotland
• 2:55 Rory plays numerous instruments, but the harmonica was his first instrument along with guitar
• 4:29 Harmonica is a travelling instrument, and he’s taken it with him all around the world
• 4:46 Has been making up songs since he was young, all with a sense of rhythm
• 5:16 First band was ‘Have Mercy’, along with Steve Baker.
• 6:31 Started out playing with blues records, on the chromatic initially
• 8:24 Bought his first bass harmonica from a shop in Germany
• 9:34 Rory uses lots of whooping and hollering in his harmonica playing and influence of early blues harmonica players
• 10:21 Have Mercy band had three harmonica players
• 11:13 Have Mercy used to soak their harmonicas in water (not a good idea)
• 12:44 The band started out busking on the streets of London and were invited to Germany, where they stayed for several years
• 13:02 Rory has travelled all around the world with his harmonica, including working as a musical clown
• 14:17 Time he almost met the composer Yip Harburg, who wrote Somewhere Over The Rainbow
• 15:04 Travelled to China and Africa, and the invention of the harmonica in China (the ‘Sheng’)
• 15:48 Why Rory travelled
• 16:28 Played with a reggae band (Pressure) in Austin, Texas
• 17:08 Has a real entertainment element to his live shows
• 19:08 How Rory transitioned from a traveller to a recording artist, and lyrics
• 20:56 How Rory became a solo artist
• 22:51 Different approaches to songwriting
• 24:41 Albums released on cassette before Angry Love album
• 24:53 Angry Love album from 1981 and whooping started by pigmies?
• 26:22 Kicking The Sawdust album in 1983, with Baksheesh Dance song
• 28:19 Harmonika’s Dream song
• 30:03 Footsteps and Heartbeats album from 1987, including Loves Like A Rock Song
• 33:50 How Rory learns some of the exotic tunes and rhythms he has picked up from other countries
• 35:00 Long Lost Friend song played using a glass
• 36:06 Does a lot of instrumental songs on harmonica on his albums
• 36:57 Often uses chromatic to play tunes
• 37:30 Klezmer tunes on harmonica (Rory has Russian Jewish descendants)
• 38:24 Lassoing The Bees song choreographed by Rory’s partner
• 39:27 Most recent song Didn’t He Ramble, written as a eulogy
• 40:05 Where you can get hold of Rory’s songs
• 40:29 Other artists Rory has performed and recorded with
• 43:07 Recorded the theme tune to UK TV programme, Creature Comforts
• 44:05 Has released a book of his lyrics and chords
• 44:21 On his website is a diary of Rory’s travels
• 45:02 Won the Edinburgh Festival Street Busker of the Year and has also been arrested for busking in London
• 46:48 Texas Harmonica Champion of 1981 and BBC best live Folk Act in 2002
• 48:02 10 minute question
• 49:43 Harmonicas of choice
• 50:38 Favoured keys of diatonic
• 51:04 Different tunings
• 52:13 Amps and mics
• 52:53 Using a rack and first position
• 53:27 More on mics and amps
• 54:21 During lockdown realised how playing keeps him fit
• 54:38 Embouchre
• 55:16 Equipment used for recording
• 56:00 Future plans
• 56:16 Has been writing a book during lockdown

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Rory McLeod joins me on episode 49. Rory is a modern day wandering minstrel, a multi-instrumentalist folk singing troubadour. Rory has travelled far and wide. His trusty harmonica, plus an assortment of other instruments, has been with him every step of the way, including working as a musical clown in Mexico. His first band was Have Mercy, formed jamming in the markets of London alongside Steve Baker and another harmonica player. Rory has jammed and gone on to collaborate with a wide range of different performers around the world, including Michelle from the US and Australian Aboriginal Kev Carmody. From his travels, he has picked up tunes which have armed his harmonica repertoire with complex rhythms and unique angles. Rory won the Edinburgh Festival Street Busker of the Year and was the Texas Harmonica Champion of 1981.

UNKNOWN: 0:00

.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18

Hello Rory McLeod and welcome to the podcast. Hi Neil, thanks for having me mate. Thank you very much for joining today Rory and yes you were quite an all-rounder as we'll get into but of course harmonica has been an important part of your music since the early days. You were born in London but you've now moved to Scotland. I think you've got a Scottish father and what kind of Russian descendants as well on your mother's side.

SPEAKER_03: 1:42

Yeah that's right, Russian Jewish. Mum and dad ran away to get married because of religion and I was the first born so yeah that's right Mum was from East End, Grandma was from Russia, Mum was from Hackney, Dad's from Glavin.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51

Okay, so now you're back up in Scotland. Is that in Glasgow?

SPEAKER_03: 1:55

No, I was in Glasgow just now. I'm in the Scottish Borders now, further south, going towards Lothumbria. No, I'm not in Glasgow now. I was there last week, singing around campfires and various things.

SPEAKER_02: 2:06

I often ask people about what the music seems like, where they are and when they grew up, but you're currently in Scotland. Is that from a musical perspective or other reasons?

SPEAKER_03: 2:15

All kinds of reasons. Yeah, love probably, kids being born up here. It's cheaper than London. London, I couldn't afford to live in London anymore. I love visiting London. I was there playing last month. Music up here, there's sessions and things I go to and have fun around fires, that kind of thing. Bring the trombone. I bring the moothies as well. We call them moothies up here, of course, in Northumbria and Scotland. And I love jamming and playing along with people, apart from singing my own songs, of course. That's kind of what I do, really.

SPEAKER_02: 2:44

So it's hard not to know where to start with you, Rory, because looking over your life, you have done so much. It's pretty incredible. So we'll touch on that, but obviously focus on the harmonica as much as we can. So you mentioned the trombone there. You play numerous instruments. So what instruments do you play and where did the harmonica come into that?

SPEAKER_03: 3:02

Okay, well, the harmonica really was first. So my dad bought me a 10-hole chromatic when I was about 10 or 11 and I found tunes on it. You know, I just started trying to play tunes on it and even some blues. Eventually, I don't know how it happened, but I guess I was brought up with the Beatles and then that turned into rock and roll And then the word rock, I went looking for secondhand records and found blues by accident. Rock Island Lion and things like that. And I love Chuck Berry. So that kind of developed from there, evolved. I found, I guess, a Titanic. I don't know what made me buy that or if someone told me about it. But I started playing that, really. Started playing that and listened to the blues guys, really, who I liked. And I'd walk my girlfriend home and I missed the last bus and I walked everywhere then because most of my friends had motorbikes. But I was walking to girlfriend home and And that's how I learned to play. I just played to myself as a way of using that time, working home. So was the harmonica your first instrument? It kind of was. I knew three chords on the guitar probably back then, a Woody Guthrie song probably or something, country-ish, old-timey kind of things. But yeah, I'd say harmonica was actually,

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:05

Some of the many instruments you play in your very entertaining sets are, you know, you play guitars, you say they're trombone. You have a kind of stomp box. I think you made yourself, you sing, you play banjo, finger cymbals. So various more exotic instruments as well. So spoons as well.

SPEAKER_03: 4:27

Where does the harmonica fit into all that? Go on, let's see. Well, I guess harmonica's small, and it's a travelling instrument, really. Unlike a piano, you can't say, you know, oh, I left my piano in my other trouser pocket. But travelling, I guess, and walking, that's probably why I play harmonica. I used to want a piano, but never had room for one at home, and I wish I'd known accordions existed then. I was making songs as well, pretty young age, you know, making up things, you know, that I liked. So I liked rock and roll, so I liked rhythm. I was playing rhythmically and playing melodically and... So the spoons also are easy to hold and travel and quite useful if you're travelling because you have a bowl of soup given to you or whatever instead of plastic spoons. So they're quite percussive. I've played along with oud players or Moroccan or flamenco palmers and jamming with people led me on different musical journeys. I ended up joining a band or been asked to join. You might have heard of Have Mercy, but they were a jug band and we played acoustic. Was this the band with Steve Baker? Steve Baker was in it too. Chris Turner I was the original harmonica player in the band. Chris moved to the States, left the band in Henry's hands. Henry Hegan, who plays harmonica too, actually lives in Germany now. And Henry and I met, we got chucked out of school together, ended up in the same school. And that's how we first met.

SPEAKER_02: 5:41

So this was in London when Steve, before Steve moved to Germany.

SPEAKER_03: 5:44

That's right. We were busking down Portobello Market and had Camden Lock. That's when I started playing with other people more. I played with a friend at school. I loved Muddy Waters. You know, I loved the slide guitar. So I was playing a bit of that. It was really playing with Have Mercy, I guess.

SPEAKER_02: 5:59

So, yeah, so we'll get on to your many travels shortly. You're a folk musician, yeah, but you go into various different genres. You know, you play some blues, as you said there, some flamenco, calypso, Celtic, all sorts of stuff, yeah, you play. And you write some great songs as well yourself, you know, in the true folk singer mould. of a kind of protest

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

song. So you talked about,

SPEAKER_02: 6:30

you know, getting some old records and I think you picked up some sort of Sonny Terry, Sonny Boy Williams sort of records. Is that how you started sort of learning the harmonica in earnest? And presumably you got diatonic by that stage as well.

SPEAKER_03: 6:43

Yeah, I think it was. Although it's funny because I think I had a Jimmy Reese. I was trying to play stuff on the chromatic, but it didn't have the same tone. I was playing straight as well, blowing and using the button, but it just sounded quite tame, really, compared with the diatonic sound where you can bend notes. So I loved Rice Miller, Sonny Boy 2. I loved Sonny Boy 1 as well, and Big Walter. I loved Louis Armstrong, funnily enough, though, as well. I mean, I loved jazz, and I loved hearing his trumpet solos were fantastic. The way he constructed a solo on West End Blues for example long notes and then flying off in some dynamic way that inspired me as much as anything else and the hot club stuff Django Reinhardt stuff I loved it all to be honest Neil it was all the folk music I mean we grew up listening to at school reggae all my Caribbean friends you know we loved reggae we heard reggae at school Bob Marley of course eventually came into the scene with Desmond Decker and the Israelites and those were hits when I was at school so all that kind of stuff fed in somewhere somewhere it's rhythm I love rhythm them a lot

SPEAKER_02: 7:44

as you say so it sounded like you probably first started listening to harmonica blues harmonica which most people do yeah but then you you know you diversified your harmonica sound from all these different influences yeah so did you just kind of pick that up yourself as you know from the music you liked and playing along to it

SPEAKER_03: 7:58

yeah i think i did i mean i'd be a tune in my head like when i was first playing chromatic i i was making up tunes as well but the having the button obviously gave me notes that i couldn't normally get but i didn't i didn't know that at the time that i couldn't get certain notes i was just playing along so um Eventually, I loved the different octaves you can get on a chromatic, the rich low notes and the high notes. I just found tunes I liked, and I was jamming quite a lot, playing with Irish friends from Donegal. When I lived in Germany, I would go along to Hohner in Hamburg there. They'd say, oh, we've got this scene. Would you like it? It was spinning. On the shelf was dust, gathering dust for ages, and it was a bass harmonica, an Educator. It was called Educator Bass. And I said, God, yeah. And he said, well, 12 marks and it's yours. So I did that. I got that. I don't think I played it. that much at the time, but it was great for recording. I just loved the sounds you can get from that. You know, the bass harmonica is all blow notes, but the way it fills space without getting in the way, you can feel it breathing like a bullfrog.

SPEAKER_02: 8:55

You've done some recordings with the bass harmonica as well.

SPEAKER_03: 8:58

Yeah, that's right. And I mean, in a way, that's what took me to the trombone. I was looking for a tuba, actually, but that fat bass sound that you get, that bullfrog-y sound on the bass harmonica. I've got one here, actually. You can take your mouth away and it's still humming. You know, I love that, like a joha so it's beautiful and it's yeah I kind of arrange in my head if I'm jamming with people I'm really listening quite a lot and I just think oh I think some bass would be nice on this bit or some spoons and it's just you know trying not to get in the way

SPEAKER_02: 9:27

you talk about rhythm being key to you and you see that's that works very well in the harmonica and you do play quite a lot you've got quite a lot of sort of Sonny Terry type style with a rhythm and it's kind of whooping and hollering so that's something that was quite key in your harmonica playing early on as well, was it?

SPEAKER_03: 9:44

Well, I loved Noah Lewis, actually. He was fantastic. I loved Noah, and there was a guy, D. Ford Bailey was someone I discovered. They played rhythm, lovely rhythms and swell. I remember D. Ford Bailey was the first black guy to play at the Grand Ole Opry, I think. And it was funny because I was in Zimbabwe playing, and I found out I was the first white guy to play at this particular hall in Bulawayo, and I was playing the harmonica. So I was thinking, harmonica players of the world unite, kind of thing. But yeah, so their rhythm playing was great, that kind stuff. Obviously, trains feature a lot in things like that, but of course I love Sonny Terry and Gus Cannon. Peg Leg Sam was another guy I liked. Chris, who was with Have Mercy, was a great player. He was a wonderful player and had a nice ear for stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 10:27

So did you have three

SPEAKER_03: 10:28

harmonica players in this band then? Well, it was actually Jan. So Chris had left, but Chris, I knew before he left. So it was Jan Eccles. Jan was from Louisiana. Jan played quite rhythmic stuff. It was Steve and myself. Yeah, and Henry. Henry sang. Well, I had was lead singer too Henry now plays harmonica these days he's got a lovely feel actually Henry I like his feel so yeah that was we kind of found ways of arranging cross rhythms without getting in each other's way you know we shared you know someone else would take a solo and then I'd chug the rhythm and then it was my turn and you know Jan would play a chug and we got some really good cross rhythms going you know Jan and I he was a rhythmic player too so it was acoustic you know we were an acoustic band it wasn't electric harp we blow the reeds to bits I mean we're trying to find volume you know we foolishly soaked them in water back then it was the time when harmonicas were put together with tacks you know they were like carpet tacks almost tear them apart and uh you know they leaked like anything you know the air so i think the water somehow sealed them a little for a wee while but of course then you got the combs swelling up and tearing your mouth to bits yeah we arranged stuff together there was an album called boodle lamb so But we were playing Jug Band stuff. So we played Gus Cannon stuff, going to German. We played Stealing, of course. There was a bit of Ragtime. We played some Muddy Waters. stuff, Mud's Boogie, we played Wine Spodioli, it was a big hit. In fact, Big Walter's tune, Have a Good Time, was a real stable kind of song for us. I Feel So Good. We were running around on each other's piggybacks, you know, and playing through hosepipes and swinging them around our heads, playing through them like some Leslie Speaker. It was quite physical actually. The folk clubs weren't that fond of us because we were quite physical players. We wasn't quite polite and precious like, you know, some folk tunes can be.

SPEAKER_02: 12:29

Sounds like you the great tradition of harmonica groups, you know, doing all these kind of physical things, isn't

SPEAKER_03: 12:35

it? Yeah, that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:36

This is how you got started, isn't it? You were busking on the streets of London with this jug band and your music career started from there, didn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 12:43

That's right, really. Yeah, I mean, we were busking and I don't have an amp now, but I even busked with a little box escort, tiny little thing, battery, and got crowds sometimes doing my songs, of course. But yeah, as a band, that's how we started. We got invited to play in Germany and then we stayed living there for quite a while. touring around, playing.

SPEAKER_02: 13:02

So you went from London to Germany and this gets onto the topic of you were a very well-traveled man and that you've traveled all around the world playing music. And you've talked about the portability, the harmonica and the spoons. And so this is, you know, you've really lived a life, haven't you? You were a fire eater in a Mexican circus where you also, I think, played a bit of harmonica as part of that as well.

SPEAKER_03: 13:21

I did, that's right. Yes, I was a musical clown. How did I join? I joined as a fire eater because I'd learned to do that. In fact, when we were busking with Ab Mercy and then Portobello, we broke a string. then my turn to go and eat some fire and keep the crowd that's what I did in the circus but I also did a bit of pantomime clowning I was a vagabond clown with my harmonica so I did a train and I did a kind of pantomime thing going around the circus ring and saying goodbye and it was a little narrative that I had that's right Mexico that's where I learnt my Spanish really no one spoke English so I was in the deep end there so yeah jamming here and there that's right travelling and it's a way between earning a living farming or digging or cooking or whatever else there was the music this course as well yeah and it's it's it's a universal language so i was making songs still singing to people who didn't understand the words but i was i'd made all these songs and tunes that i was playing to people who might not necessarily understand english until actually there was someone who came up to me i ended up in it was in chiapas and a woman came up i was singing a couple of songs she said i wish to work with this guy god i was his secretary you must meet him i'm going to give his phone number he's in new york city and it was yip harburg who wrote over the rainbow and wrote buddy can you spare a dime i never got there in time I end up in Texas waylaid there in Austin and on my way to New Orleans never got to New Orleans on that particular trip yeah no it's music's a passport in a way definitely a language China Gambia parts of Africa playing with people playing in Zimbabwe there as I said earlier they've got a whole tradition of mouth bows chip and darnies they're called Frank Gombo I found him he was on a postage stamp and I found him he was a baker for a music teacher so I jammed with him interviewed him a little But I've got some footage of him somewhere on a video, somewhere that I took. And in China, well, that's where the harmonica came from. So you've got the Sheng there. I enjoyed all the street musicians there. Lovely accordion playing. And there was two string fiddles called an Ahu. And that was tribal, 68 different tribes in China that play with their own folk music and language.

SPEAKER_02: 15:18

People in China appreciate the fact that the harmonica comes from China originally.

SPEAKER_03: 15:22

I don't know whether they know that. I mean, obviously the accordion, the free-flowing reeds, again, accordions there. And the pentatonic scales they play, like Robbie Byrne's tunes go down well, Scottish tunes, because they're quite pentatonic, like the pipes. But I don't know if I knew that. I mean, the banjos there were fantastic. There were these fretless banjos, but they had snakeskin on them, you know. I was jamming and playing, got a crowd. I think I would have got a crowd anyway, to be honest, Neil, because I was quite exotic being, you know, some tall guy with a big nose.

SPEAKER_02: 15:48

So you travelled to play music, or did you travel and play music where you went? Which way round was it?

SPEAKER_03: 15:54

Oh, God, different things. We travelled meant to mend a broken heart, see what's round the next corner. Music was a way of surviving I think on the way playing for your next meal that kind of thing and having fun with it and also as I say busking language it is a language so I'd be with parties and people are playing singing there'll be fiddles so jamming along and being taken on journeys I mean that's kind of how we all might learn you know different how to play different things but music has different accents rhythms have different accents where syncopations happen or you realize that you can play harmonica or anything with a reggae band I play with a reggae band in Austin and they That reggae band called Pressure, we supported Peter Tosh and we supported Dennis Brown. The harmonica fits all kinds of, yeah. It's the kind of instrument that keeps people, keeps you company if you're on your own as well. And it's got grace notes to it, you know, bends and so, like the pipes have and obviously fiddles have, so. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 16:49

it's good to hear that, you know, like you say, the harmonica fits in so much, different types of music. People think that it doesn't, yeah, people think that it's just a blues instrument, yeah, so, but, you know, I think you show, and the different people I have on the podcast with the different styles, but you really show that, yeah, it can kind of fit anywhere, yeah, and you can just play along in it and it fits in great, so. One thing that you, that comes out from all your traveling and running from your shows is your level of entertainment, like, you know, you've worked in the circus, you've traveled all around the world, you've done all these different things and been to all these exotic places. You know, has that really sort of helped shape your show so that, you know, the entertainment, the fact that you're playing today I

SPEAKER_04: 17:31

think it is, I mean

SPEAKER_03: 17:38

Had Mercy themselves, as a band, we were quite physical, you know, we weren't playing in our heads, we were physically playing harmonica, blowing, you know, blowing our faces or something we call it, whipping it to a plank, you know, I mean, quite physical with a guitar sometimes, you know, like, I think it does, yeah, I mean, because it's a language, I mean, just like juggling and pantomime is a kind of language, you know, even trying to describe something and we're using your hands, so, yeah, all that did feed into stuff, I mean, obviously the circus stuff, I developed some kind of act, how just by improvising living in the moment sometimes at a gig things happen a baby might start crying or if there's a baby there that is or a dog or a police car might go by and you jam along with that all kinds of things can happen that trigger off things and you're kind of being quite playful. If you're sensitive, you know, you're listening, because I think obviously listening to people, that's like the secret for anything really. Like if you're jamming with people, if you're in conversation, listening's the secret. So being kind of tuned in to what's around you, I suppose, then you become creative in that kind of way and have fun. It's kind of having fun and living in the moment, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02: 18:56

You know, obviously live performance, I think, is where you're really at, yeah, and that really comes out from what you're saying there. But you have recorded a lot albums going back to 1981, your first album, which was Angry Love. So at what stage did you go from being, you know, travelling around, playing music with all sorts of different people, all sorts of different cultures to start, you know, to start recording? You said that you went from London to Germany and then, you know, sort of what happened with your sort of recording career?

SPEAKER_03: 19:22

Yes. Well, we did record in Germany, that's right. And I did a few demos here and there. There was a youth club that I played in. First thing I probably recorded was all voice, it was all acapella. And I was singing all the bass parts on it worked out an arrangement so even the rhythm at the time i think i called it mouth music now it might be called beatbox i suppose but i was using my you know my teeth and my you know for percussive things and my uh so experimenting even with recording in austin i got a chance because someone has some some money do a bit of recording there for quite a while i was a bit worried about uh recording because i thought i'm going to be captured here on they won't want to hear the songs after they've heard them of course i was very foolish and green about that because actually it kind of go hand in hand getting other work but I enjoyed the recording process because it's like painting and arranging basics all around the songs, love songs and stories, and illustrating those somehow using music, different textures with the spoons.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

I think that's one thing, you know, I really want to get people to check out and listen to you. As much as this is a harmonica podcast and your harmonica is great, you know, your lyrics are fantastic and you're a real folk singer in that sort of tradition, but in all sorts of the different topics that you just talked about

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

there. The criminals and little fiends, it's the big things ruled alive

SPEAKER_01: 20:32

you know

SPEAKER_02: 20:45

when did you start you know reading i think you were saying when you were playing in the jug band you know you couldn't really play your your own songs that you'd written and you wanted to and you sort of started out doing your one-man show but

SPEAKER_03: 20:57

Actually, I'll tell you what happened, because we had mostly split up, and I was playing with a guitarist for a while, Dick, who's great ragtime. He loved Blind Boy Fuller, kind of staff, Robert Johnson, of course, Brunzi. I was playing some jazzy riffs, a bit like Jazz Gillen would have done, you know, that kind of jazz straight playing. But what happened was, so I'd arranged some gigs. We were playing in Greek restaurants and being fed, getting 50 marks. I'd arranged gigs, and then suddenly, Dick wasn't showing up to them. He just wasn't that reliable. This happened, and I thought, well, I did a whole night of playing harmonica, and I thought, well, hold on a minute. I've got these songs I've got the guitar next time I'll just start doing my song I just started doing my songs and started it like that because of really because my mate let me down so it wasn't out of choice because I love playing with other people I just realised that there I was left in the lurch so I did a whole evening playing harmonica and tunes and everything I could think of and they liked it and I was having fun with it being silly because trying to entertain people a bit while they're eating and drinking that's when I started playing my own songs really I suppose they're folk I mean I think of them as country I mean it's all folk to me reggae folk music Jamaican folk music it's you know whether it's country or quite simple I was doing songs that I hoped that the band might sing you know might sing and we did a couple of them with the band we recorded them when we did record but I was more and more singing in my own accent I suppose as well when you're singing with other people you're forced to sing in American accent and I kind of wanted to just be myself someone from London with whatever heritage I've got so I was making songs about my mum and my gran and

SPEAKER_01: 22:25

I'm salty And girls I went

SPEAKER_03: 22:38

to school with and love songs, of course, and songs about enjoying nature, I could say, because I love looking at nature and celebrating all that. I guess it was all came from wanting to kind of express myself in my own way, that kind of way.

SPEAKER_02: 22:51

Yeah, interesting. You know, you obviously spend a lot of time doing songwriting and how do you go about that? How do you put together a song do you you know do you sit down the guitar or do you write the lyrics first you know how do you approach it

SPEAKER_03: 23:02

I mean, sometimes you have lyrics first, sometimes you'll have a tune, or the best is when they come together. I used to get riffs sometimes, harmonica riffs. I've still got loads I've never ever used. I quite like, what was it, Captain Beefart back then? There was some weird stuff. I quite like Little Feet, talking about, this is other, more contemporary stuff, and Sly Guitar. So I liked percussive, clangy sounds, you know, Beefart might have used. I think Tom Waits uses a bit of that sometimes these days. I was experimenting with riffs, so I'd get two tape recorders together and I'd try and construct these rhythms and playing one and then playing into the other you know into the mic and playing over that there was no um port studios back then or ways of doing it so i was experimenting with riffs and arrangements like that trying to making up songs sometimes the melody comes together and you get the idea come at one other things the stories and i'm trying to make them interesting a whole story like the circus song suddenly goes into a waltz in the middle because just to change that but it's also someone madly running around a ring juggling so try to change the rhythm in the middle of something to to magnify a moment or bring another moment out slowing down does that sometimes you can slow things down to magnify a moment and then speed up again or I'll drop the percussion out I'll drop my feet out and I might just be me and the guitar and that suddenly you're focusing more on the words and it's quieter so it's dynamics as well involved in that so it's all kinds of things it's hard there's no set rule really

SPEAKER_02: 24:22

we can turn now to talking through some of your many albums as i say you did your first album 40 years ago now

SPEAKER_03: 24:28

yes well it's it's funny if i hear them i think oh god you know i'm singing sometimes the playing or the singing slightly rough because sometimes i was experimenting and in public really sometimes and some were even recorded before that because before angry love they were on a cassette you know i had these and i think angry love and the double album the second album were on a lot of those things were on cassette that was selling cool talking music i think was cool because i didn't have a record deal I was doing it all myself.

SPEAKER_02: 24:53

So with Angry Love, you had a full band with that, didn't you? But you don't have, I think, most, if not all the albums. That's

SPEAKER_03: 25:00

right. Well, it wasn't a band so much as people I brought in, like a drummer. I love tuba, so I tried to find a tuba player. So Elements came together and I found, because I was in Austin at the time, some of them recordings. Ponty Bone played with Butch Hancock, so I knew Butch and Jimmy Delgill more quite well. And Lucinda Williams was playing. We were playing in the same bars, Nancy Griffith. And because I was jamming around, I knew people. I said, could you come and... It wasn't a band so much as trying to bring people together, try these arrangements out.

SPEAKER_02: 25:26

I picked out Farewell Welfare on there, which is definitely a Sonny Terry song.

UNKNOWN: 25:32

It's...

SPEAKER_02: 25:43

You've got quite a distorted sound

SPEAKER_03: 25:45

on the harmonica. That's right, yeah. And there's a bit of slide guitar, electric, well, plugged in kind of riff. There's a little riff in there, which was done on the guitar. That was someone I met at one of the... East Anglian Fairs, actually, Mike Story, who helped me record that, put some mad keyboard stuff on it. I've tried to get my feet in there, so that's a gravelly foot there. You can hear. I've got tap shoes off later on. I started using the tap shoes more, but I guess it is quite sunny, Terry. It's funny, though, because the whooping, that Pygmies did that. I mean, you could do it with a bottle. I've done it with bottles filled with water, and you can get more than one note on a bottle. So it's a similar kind of technique, really, that.

SPEAKER_02: 26:22

So, yeah, so in your 1983, you had kicking the soda so you had a song called Bakshish Dance I think this is inspired from your time in Afghanistan and you're playing two harmonicas on there are you?

SPEAKER_03: 26:49

I'm playing bass harmonica and I'm playing I think I'm playing yeah diatonic I normally do, I record it live as I'm doing it, the song, and then I put the bass on when I go after. And some of this breath sounds and I mean, I've got a whole thing of wind and breath, but I'm using, again, I'm using the mouth, those rhythms and using breath.

SPEAKER_02: 27:08

So, and again, showing that, you know, that you're playing this kind of exotic music, you might say, exotic, you know, from other countries, Afghanistan and playing that tune on the harmonica there. Is that a tune you picked up on the harmonica whilst playing it over in Afghanistan with people?

SPEAKER_03: 27:21

Not really. Although I did play, I played with a generator once. It was funny. It kept changing because it was a drone in Herat. That song was made, I was in love with someone who was in Peshawar in Pakistan over the Khyber Pass and that journey was me going to meet her at the time. I went from Hamburg. I started going on a train, met these people on the way through Herat. So that's where all the desert and the drinking the tea and those words come from. I mean, I always come up with different rhythms. I've got things in seven, eight rhythms that are fun. It was just a rhythm that came out so i used it for the song that's how it happens just by chance jamming sometimes you jam with yourself and you come up with rhythms that you wouldn't normally you know they just come out of the air obviously the all that rhythm playing is comes from somewhere i mean obviously listening hearing it probably not sunny you know those guys i'm sure you know really because there's no one else doing it obviously sometimes you end up making things your own somehow you know because you spend so much time with the harmonica traveling it does become part of you which is where harmonica dreams come from that's got definitely got more than one harmonica on it, that recording.

SPEAKER_00: 28:24

Well, I love my harmonica note for note She gives me my soul, she shouts, let's go She's my eleventh finger and my second tone At night she warms me like a rising sunny memo Feels so good, all the time she goes Keeps me close to please me Oh, how I love my home Oh, how I love my home Oh, how I love my

SPEAKER_05: 28:47

home When

SPEAKER_00: 29:14

I play her or she plays me, I can't tell anymore, but she's company. I give her rhythm, she give me notes to cry. Once I put a dying man back to life, she can... Yeah, there's

SPEAKER_02: 29:39

a good video of that. I'll put a link onto that onto the podcast page of you doing the harmonica stream, which is all kind of about your relationship with the harmonica, yeah?

SPEAKER_03: 29:48

Yeah, exactly. You know, these things start as lyrics and then... realize well that's when the harmonica you know you've got to have harmonica on this it's about the harmonica harmonica's dream so yeah yeah it's celebrating the harmonica i suppose and how it is you know how close it is it becomes part of you

SPEAKER_02: 30:03

and then the album um footsteps and heartbeats where i first heard you when i really loved that album so love like a rock is a great one and again sort of sonny terry style that one but um

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

so won't you rock with me well now

SPEAKER_03: 30:19

i

SPEAKER_05: 30:20

Bye.

UNKNOWN: 30:30

Bye.

SPEAKER_03: 30:31

I did that live and then I started putting the bass notes in, singing the bass notes and the harmonies. And there's a djembe, I think there's a djembe on there. I'm quite wary of drum kits because they just take over and the rhythm gets lost. So I quite like real organic sounds. So yeah, I've overdubbed all those other voices and things. I think it's more than Sonny Terry. I would say Peg Leg Sand, actually. I'd give him credit for that because he doesn't get much.

SPEAKER_02: 30:57

And then you do the song Take Me Home, which again, I have Mick Concello on the podcast a while back and he does a version of Take Me Home instrumentally which I really love and I've sort of been playing that song ever since I talked to Mick and discovered him playing that song

SPEAKER_03: 31:12

and of course he took that from you That's right it's an honour I haven't had many people doing my tunes which is lovely Have you heard Mick's version? I have yes he gave me I think I've got a CD somewhere and he's playing it because we met at a session playing in Ireland Larry Roddy introduced us I think at sessions and that was nice to meet him he's lovely he's a nice player too I love the band and Joe and the mandolin on that recording of mine as well with Paul Rodden and Steve. You can hear that the colour is all there. And in some ways that kind of led me, I just love the colour of those instruments, you know, the picking and the plucking and fantastic playing.

SPEAKER_02: 31:44

I'm very interested in, you know, our interactions with harmonicas and other instruments, particularly for people like you who play more than one instrument, you know, how that helps formulate the harmonica playing, you know, alongside the other instruments.

SPEAKER_03: 31:55

Of course, we're playing, obviously, those tunes are my own, and you can hear some Latin kind of influence in some of those South American American ideas, you know, six, eight kind of rhythms that they, well, even in, in Mexico, those kind of rhythms exist, which I love.

SPEAKER_02: 32:07

Yeah. Talking about the Mexican and then later on, you do this, uh, India, Mattia.

SPEAKER_03: 32:29

Yes, a Colombian Indian tune, that's right. That recording on Travelling Home, it's not stilted, but it's slightly because it's with a band and it speeds up. I do it quite differently now. So it's funny how phrasing changes, you know. It's funny, even with singing, let alone tunes, the phrasing can change from something you recorded and you haven't played through so many times and suddenly you inhabit it a bit more and the lyrics change or the phrases change and the rhythm kind of settle in or you're more experimented a bit more and be more playful and you discover little things about the tune so these things come out as well you know i don't speed it up like that anymore i just but i'm playing different notes and i play it a different way and use it i've kind of filled the air a lot with it i mean especially in a the resonance of a room away from the microphone sometimes is lovely you know because it feels depending on the acoustics of a room but that takes some time can affect the way i play i

SPEAKER_02: 33:20

think you know again that song though is a good example of how you play these you know these these kind of tunes from different countries or you know and you're applying that to the harmonica which is really interesting you know to hear that you know because it's very unique what you're playing

SPEAKER_03: 33:31

yeah i think moments shared that other tune on it's a song as well but um um on footsteps is uh is another example of that definitely because i when i played with uh some mexican guys we met we were bus i mean that mariachi song is is is about playing with them and stories but leading each other down small villages and dark alleys and things with the music there's mariachis

SPEAKER_02: 33:51

you know i say it gives you a very unique sound to a lot of your songs and so is that something you know you literally just kind of learned the tune and played it yourself on the harmonic and it came out like that

SPEAKER_03: 33:59

Sometimes the tunes come out. I mean, there's one on another album called Come With Me When I Go. It started off as a whistling tune when I was whistling. And I had a tooth removed. I couldn't whistle the same. So when I whistle, just normally like... So the tune before it became a harmonica tune was... The rhythm was the thing of it, really. So then I ended up playing it on the harmonica because it fitted as well.

UNKNOWN: 34:31

so

SPEAKER_03: 34:41

Or some songs sometimes I'll embellish colour or add a harmony with a harmonica and it comes out in a different way then as well. I might play a harmony which gives more depth to the song or I'm playing with a line of the guitar and playing a harmony or the guitar's playing a harmony.

SPEAKER_02: 34:57

Yeah, and you play on that same album which is Little Bites for Babies, you play Long Lost Friend. I think you're playing with a glass.

SPEAKER_03: 35:04

Yeah, I do play a glass. On that tune I did an arrangement using other harmonicas but then I got Richard to play baritone sax and and some soprano sax. I wanted all reeds on it. You know, there's pipes that come in, fill in, and there's an accordion wash that comes in. I wanted all the reeds to be playing together. I always think of the accordions, the big brother or big sister or grand, you know, of the harmonica. So I kind of wanted to use the colours, those colours. But yeah, you're right about the glass.

UNKNOWN: 35:31

MUSIC PLAYS

SPEAKER_03: 35:47

I mean, I've used that sometimes as a bit on other things when I'm doing my travelling song. I get a phone call in the middle of that sometimes when my Auntie Sadie rings me up. Yeah. And I have a bit of mischief on it. It's all part of taking people on a journey, I think, which is what storytelling is, and also the live thing. You do a lot of instrumentals, don't you, on Harmonica, I think? There's quite a lot. When I go to a session, I mean, there's a lot of tunes I do that I haven't recorded, really, even. Even the Northumbrian pipe tune, I've got I've got

SPEAKER_05: 36:33

one here.

SPEAKER_02: 36:54

you're playing chromatic there yes

SPEAKER_03: 36:56

oh yeah that's chromatic I play chromatic sometimes at sessions when it's normally they're tune sessions so I'll come in with a tune that or I play along with other people with a chromatic just because it's fun because there's different notes I can't get on the diatonic and it's just a different tone and richness but there's more interesting tunes sometimes because you've got the lever which is the button and the klezmer tunes and what I also love about the chromatic is the octave so I'll do a tune in the middle and then I'll go lower or I might start low really quiet and then do the tune again but an octave higher and it just lifts the tune it gives a bit of variety You mentioned klezmer tunes there

SPEAKER_05: 37:31

Oh,

SPEAKER_03: 37:45

well, it's called the follower or the disciple of the rabbi from Trisk.

SPEAKER_02: 37:48

It's funny you mentioned the klezmer because just a few episodes ago I had a guy called Jason Rosenblatt on there. He plays these amazing klezmer tunes. So I discovered Jason and I was listening to him thinking, God, these tunes sound fantastic on the harmonica. You've got to check out Jason Rosenblatt. He plays some amazing stuff on those klezmer tunes. It works so well on that music. I was astounded.

SPEAKER_03: 38:10

Yeah, yeah. I think in Brighton there's another, oh, there's a few. You can just get that lovely...

SPEAKER_05: 38:18

So a

SPEAKER_02: 38:24

song where you do that lasso in the B.

UNKNOWN: 0:00

..

SPEAKER_03: 38:42

That was made for, actually, Claire, my partner, is a choreographer, and we met 30 years ago when I was working with a physical theatre group, making songs. She wanted to choreograph a piece based on around the cycle of Bs, so that's where that came from. And then, of course, there's some bass harmonica there too. I recorded a lot of that. With that album, Brave Faces and that track particularly, I did at home. I engineered and recorded them myself, but these days I prefer having an engineer. It's just too much to try and do, but learning. But Lasso and the Bs were fun. Yeah, it was fun. And I obviously got some baritone. Yeah, he did play. That was before he gave up playing clarinet. So again, it's the reeds together. Again, you know, that kind of combination on that particular one.

SPEAKER_02: 39:24

And recently, I think you've released a couple of singles, haven't you? One of them, Didn't He Ramble. Is that your most recent

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

one? Oh, that was, yeah, Claire's dad. Yeah, he passed away. I made a song for him, sang at his graveside. I did it with a harmonica just to keep pitching and just have something so it's not all just the words. But they'd ask for a copy of it. I thought, well, rather than, I just thought, well, I'll record it. And so I used a drone. I made a drone using a bass harmonica and a, well, a guitar, Ebo on the guitar. So it kind of has a breathing kind of drone for

SPEAKER_05: 39:52

it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 40:05

you don't have your songs on Spotify not much there's the odd one but you've got a Bandcamp site which again I've put the link to the podcast so I urge people to go along and buy some of Rory's songs to support the artists

SPEAKER_03: 40:15

or even come on to the website I get more for that I mean Bandcamp's great I'm happy if people want to go to Bandcamp I've got my own little shop I think I get a bit more of a cut than Bandcamp take a bit of a cut

SPEAKER_02: 40:26

no absolutely do that instead yeah go to Rory's website so you play with various people on your travels as well Michelle's shot in the US you play with an Australian artist original but one song which i again i heard quite a few years ago and i really loved the song was just the one by the levelers and they discovered you singing and playing harmonica on a different version so how did that come about

SPEAKER_03: 40:46

oh god yeah what they i think it was in brighton and they asked me to come and come in and do one of this cover their song and i thought well i could i'll do it this way so i did it kind of bluesy way and i'm playing sly guitar harmonica and trombone singing it too i can't quite remember how it sounded in the end how it came out

SPEAKER_00: 41:01

you shouldn't do it can see no reason why so you blow your Yes, yes, aha

SPEAKER_03: 41:19

I think they were getting all kinds of people to cover their songs in their own way, which actually is quite a good idea. I was thinking, if anyone wanted to cover my songs, it'd be nice to hear different versions of them. Make people do them their own way.

SPEAKER_02: 41:33

I discovered The Levellers with a great song, Devil Went Down to Georgia, which you might know. A superb song of theirs. And then that Just The One's a good one. I think it works really well with your voice. I think you kind of do a better version with your vocals.

SPEAKER_03: 41:44

I'll have to go and look that up, actually, Neil. But Ali Fakhtour was, well, actually, how did that happen? It was through Hassan, Hassan Araji, I met Ali. He's a oud player, a blind Moroccan oud player. He was on a train, found out we're going to the same festival. And I said, what's in there? Because he had an oud. It was quite a weird shaped case. So he told me and we became friends and he came to stay with me and I went to visit him and we ended up playing a bit together. And Moroccan music, oud. In fact, he's on Footsteps and Heartbeats, thinking about that. Yeah, he's playing oud on that and some Bendia. Lovely guy. And it was through him I met Ali. And then Tarika, I just had to jam with him on stage in Canada we were on the same festival I played some slide guitar with him and Ali with him and Taj Mahal really because they were so respectful of each other that they didn't kind of take off they were so waiting for each other to take off and didn't want their egos or whatever to take over so I was asked to come and put some slide on that but I'm playing on the river and the source anyway one of Ali's and Michelle I was her band actually so we played we toured UK and Italy I think and then sometimes she did have a band I was still there and I did some so I played on Graffiti Limbo live she was recording all her stuff live actually eventually I think she did it so Graffiti Limbo the police come so I did the police siren and solo part of the solo I think she eventually recorded it again and anyway someone else was asked to play my solo somewhere in LA I don't know who it was but yeah playing with different people like that

SPEAKER_02: 43:04

and you've also had some television work you did the theme tune to the TV program Creature Comforts which is a program about kind of speaking animals wasn't it animation

SPEAKER_03: 43:14

that's right that was through um it was someone who'd heard me golly his name is goleski he's one of the animators uh heard me in bristol and he i think he heard angry love or he liked the songs just the feel of the songs maybe there's a rawness they liked and so he asked me to do do a theme tune and had to be so long and you know so many seconds and minutes or whatever so

SPEAKER_05: 43:45

That

SPEAKER_03: 43:49

was quite a privilege. So I was in Orkney at the time. We were waiting for Finn to be born. So this must be 18, 19 years ago because Finn's 18 now. I was in Orkney and all I had was a harmonica. I borrowed my mother-in-law's pots and pans and my father-in-law's mandolin for that. Yeah. So I had to come up with a tune. So yeah, that was it.

SPEAKER_02: 44:05

Well, as to a book, you've released a digital songbook of your songs, 148 lyrics and 34 chords. Is that available on your website?

SPEAKER_03: 44:12

Yes, that's right. It's a digital one. It's not a... I did want to make a hard copy that people could take around at the campfire. But yeah, it's all the lyrics, really.

SPEAKER_02: 44:21

Another great thing I want to mention on your website is this kind of diary of a lot of your travels. Again, I'll put a link onto that. I was reading through some of that and really fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 44:31

Yeah, that's right. I guess sometimes I'd write letters to people and it ended up... Actually, the Chinese one became an article, I think. I sent a long, long letter to someone and said, can we take some of that and use it for an article? I think it was in Folk Roots magazine or something. But I said, yeah, sure, because I've got photographs as well that went with it. I had some recordings I'd left at the National Sound Archive, but they were in such disarray. In the end, I've given it to Edinburgh University now. Some street music, you know, stuff that was from there. There's a Chinese department there, so they've got that now.

SPEAKER_02: 45:03

So you mentioned Edinburgh, and you've already mentioned busking. So in 1985, you were Edinburgh Festival Street Busker of the Year.

SPEAKER_03: 45:10

Yeah, it's true. I didn't know it was a competition. I just was there busking, and someone came up to me and said, you've got to come tonight to wherever it was, you know, the final, and it was a final, and then who was the judge? I think Loudon Wainwright and Hank Wainfield were the judges at the time, and yeah, I think I did a harmonica thing. That's nice. The money came in handy. I mean, it wasn't a lot, but yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_02: 45:26

And you also got arrested for busking in Leicester Square.

SPEAKER_03: 45:29

Yeah, that was a long while ago. I'd come back from Germany, I think, and that was when I used a little Vox Escort amp to play harmonica through. I used to go to Camden Lock sometimes, and I had a really good crowd at Leicester Square, and I was done for willful obstruction, and people were booing the police, so they took me away in the meet- I didn't even get a chance to, you know, they were trying to put money through the window and I couldn't get it. Might have made a bit of money that day. And then I was in court and I pleaded not guilty to willful obstruction. And then they said, well, you have to come back then if you plead not guilty. And I thought, well, I'm living in Germany. It's going to cost me more to get back because I've over-visited my mum. My mum and dad were splitting up. I said, look, I'll plead guilty. But the harmonica, I was playing harmonica then. Busking's really good. It saves you getting a gig. You don't have to book a gig and wait for a week until you can do it. You just go and play, and I like that. I've jammed with people. I've taken a trombone. We've done tangos. Portobello Road was good, Portobello. But I remember there was these tango dancers playing with a backing track. It was a couple. One of them was actually an ex-bus conductor. And I thought, if you want me to play a real tango for you, that's lovely. and he did and my mate Bob was with me he was a clarinet and we got a really big crowd then he got a crowd because he was actually tango doing tango dancing with live music so yeah that was trombone but I've got a few tangos I did on the harmonica actually I did it yeah I used it in a show I don't think I recorded them

SPEAKER_02: 46:48

talking about some musical awards in 1981 you were the Texas harmonica champion

SPEAKER_03: 46:52

yeah that was a I think all the good guys didn't enter it to be honest but yeah that was at Kerrville and I think I didn't have the money to go in for it people because I've been back asking around all the campfires and was there. I think people clubbed together, bless them.$50 was it? Whatever it was to enter me and I won. I felt I could pay them all back, but they didn't want it back. Bless them. Lovely people.

SPEAKER_02: 47:11

And I'm talking about another award. In 2002, you won the BBC Best Live Folk Act.

SPEAKER_03: 47:16

Yeah, that's true. That was a nice feather. So you are a folk musician. Well, I must be. You know, I am. Of course I am. I mean, for me, it covers everything. Country music. Hank Williams was folk music, I think. So it's all... Talking of Hank

SPEAKER_02: 47:26

Williams, again, I was listening to you. You did Ramblin' Man, which I really love of his. Again, again I was checking through and he said oh is this the Hank Williams version it is I really love that song yeah

SPEAKER_03: 47:35

that's acapella that track is me no instruments I'm singing all the it's all the parts even including the probably for the drama or something

SPEAKER_01: 47:42

he made a ramblin' man now some folks might say that I'm no good that I wouldn't settle

SPEAKER_02: 47:59

down in The question I ask each time is if you had 10 minutes to practice on the harmonica, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_03: 48:08

I'd say jamming with people is great, but that's playing what you know. So I wouldn't do scales. If there was a tune you really loved, I'd try and learn the tune, really. Try and learn the tune, because tunes are lovely. Scales are probably really useful, I'm sure, but I'd just try and learn a tune that you like, even if it's difficult. I think if a tune is difficult, I mean, I did that on the trombone as well, you have to develop techniques techniques to play that tune then and that's so that's kind of practicing and i'm getting your breathing and the phrasing and uh you know the the tone of it perhaps using the diaphragm perhaps to get the tone which you would if you were singing i mean most wind instruments you use that tone get trying to get that tone with using your muscles there

SPEAKER_02: 48:48

you learn tunes by playing by ear

SPEAKER_03: 48:50

yeah i do i don't read yeah i just play by ear i play everything by ear and i arrange as i say i've arranged using my voice there's recordings in fact i even put them on the album in the end there was a whole demos of arrangements of me singing in all the parts and I thought I'm going to put that on instead it's like the Mills Brothers singing all the parts but I play by ear I can't think of any other way of doing it I wish I'd learned to read as well and write because that would be interesting the stuff you could write I've started a few years ago I inherited a piano finally got a piano and I sat at that and I'm picking out just sitting on it picking tunes out and they were more melodically led and quite different very light with lyrics but very I was singing in my head less physical completely and some of those I thought I could play that on my money and if they were tunes that were Maybe you could be playing on the harmonica as well, but very simple. I stuck all the labels of the notes, put them all down so I could remember what notes I was playing, but black and white

SPEAKER_02: 49:38

notes. So we're getting to the gear side of things now. So talking about harmonicas, so what sort of harmonicas do you play?

SPEAKER_03: 49:47

Yeah, sure. We play Vampers. I did play Special Twenties. I've tried them. Now I play, I like the cross harp. I like the bamboo cross harp. They don't swell and they're pretty airtight with the four bolts on them. So I like those.

SPEAKER_02: 49:59

The crossovers.

SPEAKER_03: 50:00

The crossovers. Sorry, crossovers. Yeah, that's what they're called. Yeah, yeah. With a bamboo laminate. Bamboo, I think it's laminate. Yeah, I like those. And the chromatic one, to be honest, a lot of my stuff needs repairing. I've had it for years, but the button came off. But it's a Chromonica thing, 64-hole thing.

SPEAKER_02: 50:16

So is it a 16-hole, did you say, then, or a

SPEAKER_03: 50:18

10-hole? Well, they started with a 10-hole. How many has this got? 12-hole. Yeah. I've got a big C, one of Steve's, Steve Baker's, with the chord. We used to play the big C's, low ones, you know, together when we played. We did Bye Bye Bird as a band. There's all of us playing harmonicas. Lovely low. I love the low harmonicas. I like high too. I guess it depends on my voice. So I tend to use C harmonicas for playing G for the voice. Sometimes obviously A for playing along with... People want to play blues, it's normally they're going to play an E. But I quite like the G. I like the low F as well. So that lovely, buzzy, low sound. I like kind of bassy things, I suppose. Of course they're lovely. But also for bending, they're just quite nice to bend. end, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 51:01

Yeah, those low ones are nice, yeah. And what about any different tunings, anything like that? Do you use anything like that?

SPEAKER_03: 51:07

Yeah, I discovered, God, years ago, it was Amol, which means minor, but in German. So the minor harp I liked. I mean, I can play minors, you know, you can play, obviously play minor on a diatonic normally, but I quite like the chords you get from them as well, you know, different things you couldn't normally get. So yeah, definitely use a minor, harmonic minor.

SPEAKER_02: 51:26

And some of the tunes we talked about, you know, they do have different sounds to them. I you know are you playing different positions in there

SPEAKER_01: 51:33

yeah

SPEAKER_02: 51:52

You know, you're aware of that when you're playing these tunes,

SPEAKER_03: 51:54

yeah. I'm aware of that when I'm jamming with people. You know, there's, I don't know, they might be playing a minor chord and I'm playing, so I'll be playing probably, I don't know if it's called third position, I think, but people playing minor. But Indie Matteo's in a minor, you know, that's a minor key. And then going to a major sometimes, I play straight sometimes, bending the notes at the top. On Black, Brown and White, I think there's a solo in there. It's a Big Bill Brunswick song cover. I think I got Richard to play baritone sax and then the harmonica comes in. Kind of threw an amp at that one, but Quite a short one. Ends up with a police siren. Most of the time, I don't often use amps. Just to get that cut through, you know, kind of edge to it, I'd use an amp on that, just for fun. It's fun playing with a microphone because you don't have to do much work breathing-wise. It's really, you can just play sensitive, you know. It's good fun. I mean, I don't do a lot of that. We're not on my own gigs because I just use the mic that's there, a vocal mic, really.

SPEAKER_02: 52:53

Well, I was going to say, sometimes you're playing instrumentals, obviously you hold the harmonica, but you also play on a rack as well, don't you, playing guitar at

SPEAKER_03: 52:58

the same time? Yeah, there's a couple on Galloway Girl and on Wrong Side of the Wall, I'm playing a

SPEAKER_00: 53:04

rack. from our

SPEAKER_03: 53:09

family. those tunes I'm playing straight on those I think I'm playing straight on those and on the direction song it's a very silly song that I made had to get to our house that's all straight playing you know it's a jig actually

SPEAKER_02: 53:25

that one you mentioned gear there as well so microphones and amp wise are you using you mentioned little practice amp well the busking amp earlier but are you using you know tube amps or always a clean sound

SPEAKER_03: 53:36

probably a clean sound now I don't have an amp especially for the harmonica I just use I've got I've got a microphone for hygienic reasons really and for the voice so So that's a Sennheiser, I think. But I used to use Shure SM58s. I had a Uni-Dyne B years ago. I've used those. And I don't really use an amp. I use the room, play around the room, walk around. But when I might jam with a band or there might be a microphone up there, I just, whatever mic's available. I did have a radio mic, which I used in a show, and that was great fun because there's no cord. So, of course, it was, yeah, it was okay as a mic. But it was fun because there's no cords to trip over. It is fun playing electric. I mean, you know, it's quite, you can play very different and quite sensitively and creatively. and straight on tone then you know I'm quite a loud player I think I'm a loud player I tend to I can play quite forcefully because I'm used to that playing acoustic during lockdown I realised how much playing kept me fit actually because I had my first gig I was quite out of breath from singing that was just singing let alone playing harmonica and I cough I've got a I had a congestion of the lung when I was quite young so perhaps that's kept me fit playing trombone and harmonicas I suppose

SPEAKER_02: 54:37

yeah on the show wise what do you do you know your lip pursing tongue blocking

SPEAKER_03: 54:42

I'm doing both really yeah a lot of blocking, rhythmic playing, but I do purse them, obviously for bending notes at the top, but I use both. I'm not really thinking as I'm doing it. Obviously, it's got an instinctive thing that I'm doing, but maybe sometimes I want to really push a note, then I'll probably purse my lips. If I'm cupping my hands, I probably tend to be tongue blocking. I don't know. It varies, but I use both. I don't have a fast rule about it. Bending notes, again, it depends. I love the grace notes. Bending notes, of course, are baroque kind of things I might play on the chromatic, but it You don't have to bend on the chromatic.

SPEAKER_02: 55:16

And you said that, well, at least you used to do a lot of recording yourself. Now you're maybe going to more studios. Do you use any particular setup when you're recording your harmonica? Any microphones? Or are you just leaving that to the studio?

SPEAKER_03: 55:27

Yeah, normally to the studio. When I, in Australia, I bought a Rode mic for recording to go with a Roland desk that I bought in Canada. I came back with my wages. I decided to buy recording gear. So I recorded some of the albums with that. But I used a Rode mic, which I'd use for the voice. So it's very acoustic. You know, I'm not getting too close to that.

SPEAKER_02: 55:44

Is that A condenser mic?

SPEAKER_03: 55:45

Yeah, you need to plug it in. It needs a preamp. One place, where was I? Golden Oak. When I did Swings and Roundabouts, there was a ribbon mic there, an RCA mic, actually, which I think Nat King Cole would have used. Again, I didn't swallow it, you know, because that ruined the ribbon, I think, the damp and the humidity of all that.

SPEAKER_02: 56:00

What about your future plans? You know, you obviously got out gigging again. I think your travelling days are mostly behind you now, are they? And you're doing gigs?

SPEAKER_03: 56:09

I did four gigs recently. It wasn't financially viable, but it was great fun. I got to play some new songs. which is always the most fun is doing the new songs. During lockdown, I started writing a book, a story about New York. There's lots of music in that, but it's a story. I didn't pick up the guitar at all or music. I was doing that during lockdown. I might get to finish that. There's a couple of other things, story ideas that I'd started and never finished that I want to come back to soon. So there's songs and music in that as well, and some jams and sessions.

SPEAKER_02: 56:36

It's interesting that, you know, it seems to be two extremes. Either during lockdown, people either stop playing music altogether or they're kind of obsessively wanting did much more you know as much as they possibly could so it's interesting that there's kind of two extremes but maybe you know taking a break is a good thing or maybe you know practicing excessively for hours in their day is also a good thing as well it is

SPEAKER_03: 56:56

well it's funny because I when you pick up an instrument you haven't played like the guitar cool it was fresh it was so fresh it was like new hearing with new ears the same with the harmonica you don't pick it up all the time someone asked me to make a tune up for him there was something about William Blake I did pick up bits at the beginning of lockdown I did a couple of online gigs which were fun yeah it's true but you pick it up and it's all fresh again and it's you know you're hearing it differently but I can understand it's a great it would have been a great opportunity to work out tunes and get your chops and you know learn stuff and practice I'm sure I just felt for me it was a sabbatical I wanted to do this writing and my partner was trying to write she was in exams PhD and so both of us were at home doing that and then walking going for walks and trying to swim twice a week so keep fit for the lungs I suppose but I think everyone's different and for me it was a novelty and a luxury to be able to have the time to write I suppose and not after doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 57:46

Well, if it's as good as the song lyrics that you write, I'm sure it'd be a fantastic book. So hopefully that'll be available soon and it'll go through your website. Yeah, so thanks very much for joining me today, Rory McLeod. My pleasure. Thanks for having me and good work, mate. And great work from Rory. I highly recommend everyone checks out his songs. I'll put a list of some of the songs which contain his great harmonica playing on the podcast page so you can go and find those on his website and on his Bandcamp page. So thanks again, everyone. That's another episode done. Number 49. Thanks very much for the people who have sent me a donation over the PayPal links. Very much appreciated. And anyone else who wants to do the same, any amount is more than enough. The link to the PayPal donation will be on the front to the podcast page again. So thanks very much and I'll hand over now to Rory to play us out playing the Chinese Sheng instrument that he mentioned earlier on, the forerunner of the modern harmonica. So check this out, Wind's March.