Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast
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Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast
Ed Hopwood interview
Ed Hopwood joins me on episode 85.
Ed is from the UK where he started out playing drums and he shares some tips on how to bring some rhythm into our harmonica playing.
Ed loves early styles of harmonica and performs a range genres, including jug band, early blues, cajun, bluegrass and old-timey music. Ed has a one man band show where he plays harmonica, guitar, sings and a whole host of percussion instruments. He’s brought many of these skills to his main band, The Rigmarollers, a trio who play a mixture of barrelhouse blues, ragtime, jazz, swing, gospel and infectious zydeco grooves.
As well as performing, Ed runs his harmonica tuition school, the Harmonica Barge, from the canal barge on which he lives in London.
Links:
Ed’s website:
https://www.edhopwood.com/
The Rigmarollers band:
https://www.therigmarollers.com/
Teaching website:
https://www.theharmonicabarge.com/
Solo recordings on Soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/ed-hopwood-1
Mark Harrison albums:
https://www.markharrisonrootsmusic.com/music.php
Seth Shumate, old-time harmonica player:
https://oldtime-central.com/seth-shumate-oldtime-harmonica/
Videos:
One man band act:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RShyJrXbkFU
Rory McLeod, Love Like A Rock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4gFDlm4oe0
Solo gig at The Green Note:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7fmgikSS_A
Ed solo: Born In The Wrong Time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5gsMKfEpMs
Peter Madcat Ruth playing Nobody Knows You When You’re Down And Out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1UyPh3Z3LI
Harmonica Barge YouTube site:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheHarmonicaBarge
Cajun music interview with Ed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8H8GEc2x0I
Country Blues lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdfucNQwEBM
Cindy, Old-time tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDfX9m830co
I Shall Not Be Moved, Gospel song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=053CKZu-WOI
Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com
Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB
Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ
Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at
Ed Hopwood joins me on episode 85. Ed is from the UK where he started out playing drums and he shares some tips on how to bring some rhythm into our harmonica playing. Ed loves early styles of harmonica and performs a range of genres including jug band, early blues, cajun, bluegrass and old-timey music. Ed has a one-man band show where he plays harmonica, guitar, sings and a whole host of percussion instruments. He's brought many of these skills to his main band, the Rigmarolas, a trio who play a mixture of Barrowhouse blues, ragtime, jazz, swing, gospel and infectious Zydeco grooves. As well as performing, Ed runs his harmonica tuition school, the Harmonica Barge, from the Canal Barge on which he lives in London. This podcast is sponsored by Seidel Harmonicas. Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas.
UNKNOWN:Seidel Harmonicas
SPEAKER_05:Hello
SPEAKER_02:Ed Hopwood and welcome to the podcast. Hi Neil. Great. Thanks for joining me today. So you're based in the UK. I believe you grew up in Derby.
SPEAKER_01:Well, close. Yeah, I was actually born in Derby, but raised in Staffordshire, which is just across the river. So the river doves the border. I'm around 15 miles from Derby in a little town called Utoxeter. There's a race course there. That might be the only notable thing.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I believe your first instrument, you were playing drums at the age 10. Is that what got you into music?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, pretty much. I mean, my dad still plays drums and was a pro drummer in the late sixties and seventies and still is still quite active on the music scene. So yeah, there was drums around the house. So myself and my brother both just kind of fell into it and I was playing at school and in a bunch of rock bands in my teens, some rock and metal bands, kind of heavier stuff than I'm into now, mostly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but it's interesting that you say your father was a professional musician and still is. So how much of an influence do you think that was? And how much did he encourage you to take it up? Or was it just the availability, as you say, it was around the house? I
SPEAKER_01:think that was a big factor. And definitely just growing up with a lot of music around and he's got quite an extensive, well, he's downsized a bit, but he's got quite an extensive record collection. So we grew up listening to a lot of great music, a lot of jazz, a lot of blues, a lot of folk and world music, very varied tastes. He's actually quite a self-taught player with quite a distinct style. So he didn't really teach us as such, maybe showed us a few things here and there. But I didn't really have any drum tuition myself until I was in my early 20s. So mostly self-taught in my teens. And just, yeah, from listening to music and picking things up, being immersed in it.
SPEAKER_02:I understand you started playing harmonica about the age 13. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:well, I took one into school. I think it was probably to annoy the teachers or the other kids. Made some bluesy sounds and enjoyed it. Didn't really play much, actually. It was all drums. And then I sort of picked the harp back up later and started jamming with people, realizing that, you know, you've got this thing which is tiny and it's far more mobile than a drum kit. So I recognized its appeal then for the portability, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:And were you listening to any harmonica music back then?
SPEAKER_01:Of course, but I definitely wasn't listening and copying. I used to get this thing called the Blues Collection, which was a series you get like, well, my dad had it, and then he'd sort of pass it on. And that was like a cassette tape accompanied by a magazine, which I think was like a monthly thing. So I had John Lee Hooker, Howlin' Wolf, like a lot of the chess record stuff. Yeah, I really enjoyed that kind of blues sound without thinking about it. or studying it, I just heard this sound and thought, yeah, that's really cool. And I was listening to a lot of swing records, big band kinds. That was for the drums, really. Stuff like Gene Krupa, Benny Goodman.
SPEAKER_02:So early jazz influences then?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I was in my teens doing music a bit at school, but we had like one music lesson a week. There was no study going on really until I went to music college. I guess that was when I was 21, 22. So I'd actually left school and done a carpentry apprenticeship. not really knowing what I wanted to do at the time. So I'd sort of done my trade and then just out my apprenticeship and someone suggested going to music college. And I thought, oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea to put off work for a few more years. And
SPEAKER_02:you're still working as a musician now. So you're still succeeding on that front.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, it took a little while to give up the carpentry. Once people know you can do that, everyone's got a job for you. Now I can pretty much refuse and they know they're not going to get me now. So
SPEAKER_02:does that mean you're able to make harm monica combs
SPEAKER_01:that's something i haven't tried that that's probably quite intricate you know i can barely sand them flat at the moment which is harder than it looks getting into sort of tweaking tweaking my own harps making an entire comb i don't know maybe
SPEAKER_02:yeah that sounds like some transferable skills there for sure that you should look into but the other thing interesting might be connected to carpentry i don't know is that you you live on a uh on a canal barge
SPEAKER_01:yep Yes, indeed. She's called Muddy Waters. She's been a long restoration project. I was living on a big boat on the Thames, which was kind of slightly dilapidated and then ended up coming across this smaller project boat and fitted out the whole boat, myself restored it with the help of some other people as well. Yeah, I've done a lot of the woodwork in here out of recycled materials, which are pretty easy to come by in the city. So, you know, a lot of stuff gets thrown out in London, which is pretty, pretty decent materials. You find there's like a little musical community with the living on the boat. Yeah, where we were on the Thames before, that was a lot more of a community and quite a tight knit community of boats. So, yeah, there's some quite a few jams going on there around the fire. Some nice parties. We even had a festival on the boat. A full weekend festival, which we called Folk for Sale. No one fell in, luckily.
SPEAKER_02:So you have a harmonica school called the Harmonica Barge, isn't it? Which we'll get onto later. So we got the connection there to the Harmonica Barge.
SPEAKER_05:In the house. In the house. In the house.
SPEAKER_02:So you say you went to music college. I think you studied a kind of folk, traditional type subject on your music course. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, actually, the first course at college was what they call a popular music diploma, which is pretty general, as opposed to classical. So, you know, it's not classical, but that encompassed quite a lot of different styles. And again, I was mostly drumming then. with a little bit of harmonica. You'd work on a lot of different styles, a lot of copying. So I'd say not too creative. And that's one thing I find with a lot of the college courses and especially the pop music courses. So a lot of it's kind of teaching you how to copy other people And actually, it wasn't until I started my degree, so I moved down to London to do a popular music degree, that we got into more composition and songwriting in the second year and trying to be a bit more creative, which is definitely something where I feel that's where I'm at at the moment in terms of harmonica and songwriting. Yeah, it was a great course. I mean, we had rhythm and blues studies, which was also like classic 50s and 60s R&B. And you'd basically study a song, you'd study the drummer and the style, and then you'd meet up on a Friday and you'd form bands with the students from the other schools. So there'd be a lot of guitarists, bass players, vocalists. And you'd get together and form a band, no rehearsal, and then do the song you'd been working on. So that was a weekly thing.
SPEAKER_02:And so you say you were specialising in drums on this course.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. The second year we did quite a lot of jazz. So I took jazz as a specialist playing style. And the third year was a sort of final project, which I actually did blues for my final project. So I formed a band, composed a whole bunch of material, and then went and played a gig. And then we recorded that material as well and made a CD. A bit of business, the business side of
SPEAKER_02:it. So did you bring any harmonica playing into the course or did that come afterwards?
SPEAKER_01:So there's a little bit in my composition, actually. So yeah, we did country and blues. And when I recorded in the composition, yeah, I definitely played a bit of up then. And it was really just towards the end, really the third year where I was getting more and more into harmonica and especially being in the city, you know, drums was always hard to practice. There's a lot of barriers with drums. So, you know, not being able to play whenever you like and obviously the transportation, whereas harmonica, there's not so many barriers. Obviously you've got to put the time in like any other instrument, but at least it's like, you know, you can play whenever you want
SPEAKER_02:and You've definitely gone from one extreme to the other, you know, the big, heavy to pack, a set up, put away, drums, clearly really annoyed you. I thought I need the most portable instrument there is to oppose that. Was that it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I think as well, I was doing carpentry at the time. So that was like a car full of tools and then, you know, drums and hardware and everything else. So yeah, a lifetime of carrying stuff around. Now I've got a one man band show. So that's, you know, I'm actually building up a lot, too much gear probably again. And I play percussion. I've incorporated that. But yeah, the gigs where you just turn up with a small case of harmonicas, that's a wonderful thing to cherish.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So just on the drums, and I'm sure you're asked this question a lot between what you learned from the drums for the harmonica. So maybe what tips would you give people to bring some more rhythm into the harmonica playing?
SPEAKER_01:Thinking rhythmically involves a slightly different mindset. As a melodic instrument, be it harmonica or guitar, obviously having that opportunity to play melodies. You're thinking more about licks and the way a melody's moving or maybe playing a lot of notes and obviously trying to, we all like playing flashy licks or intricate licks. It sounds super cool, but rhythm is a different approach. If you're thinking like a drummer, then that's really about consistency because groove's built on something being regular Having something which people can latch onto, so that's that repetitive nature, that's a slightly different skill. And if you haven't worked on that, trying to be consistent and repetitive in what you do, it can be quite a challenge trying to provide that rhythmic nuance for the groove, which obviously is so important in blues music. Mm-hmm. and jazz and a lot of folk, but especially blues, because I think the thing that really appeals about a blues groove is its simplicity and its feel. And you should be tapping your foot or nodding your head if you're in the audience, even without thinking about it. you can get a bit of that into your harmonica playing, I think that's the way to go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think some of the most effective harmonica is often that, isn't it? It's often those kind of repetitive licks, you know, that really sort of drives it, and it's simple and repetitive. Is that something that you try and approach the harmonica to play like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. And I think coming from a strong bass, so if you want to work on getting a more rhythmic approach into your playing, like more chords and mixing melodies with the chords, which is something I really like to do, you know, I've been influenced quite a lot by old-timey melodies and Cajun and Zydeco melodies, but then having the chord as a strong bass. I mean, there's different ways to approach that. Sometimes you can start with the melody and then start to substitute some of that melody for chords. And that's a good way to do it. But also, if you think of a groove like the Fox Chase or what we'd call sort of the classic country blues rhythm, which are very similar in some ways, they're often from having that rhythmic bass as the foundation and then building melody on top of that. That can be a tricky thing for people at first to get into this different style of playing.
SPEAKER_02:What about when you're playing more melodic single note things? Are you thinking about I'm playing triplets and I'm playing across the beat and I'm playing across the bar? Are you thinking in that way from a drummer's perspective as well?
SPEAKER_01:I would describe that as thinking about rhythm explicitly in a way that if you have these two styles of learning, explicit and implicit, which you hear banded around quite a lot, but I think it's a great analogy because if you've listened to a lot of blues and a lot of folk music, you'd probably be doing these things anyway without realizing it. You'd be putting in triplets and mixing the subdivisions and crossing the bar line or doing metric modulation. But of course, when you study something explicitly, then you can name those things and that might help you to be more aware I don't necessarily think one approach is better than the other and perhaps the implicit way has more benefits in certain respects. But yeah, having more awareness of rhythmic skills and then being able to utilize them and try them over different styles, I think that's pretty useful. The danger of that is, of course, you could get too sophisticated and put in rhythmic things which sound a bit contrived. But it really depends on the style of music you're playing. I guess with a lot of these things, it's trying to make it sound like you're doing it seamlessly. And that's where practice comes in. And in a way, you could practice a rhythm and be really trying to work on different subdivisions, for example, or playing across the ball line with something that sounds quite fancy. then you want that to then become an implicit part of your playing. So it sounds like you're not thinking about it when you're actually performing. And I guess you shouldn't be thinking about it when you're performing as well. Although we're starting to get these things are kind of quite hard to define.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, so other instruments you're playing, I saw you play in February and really enjoyed the show. It was fantastic. Oh, great. So in that you're playing percussion, you're playing a washboard, you kind of got your bells and whistles and you're also singing, you're playing guitar, playing harmonic on a rack when you're doing that. So you definitely, as you mentioned earlier, taking on the multi-instrumental approach now, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was playing some gigs with guitar and then I sort of found just adding to the sound is quite nice with the feet. And obviously with the drum, the drum training, that comes naturally to me. So the one man band show, I've got a suitcase. with a drum skin cut into it. It's basically a 70s Samsonite suitcase. I sit on that. Well, if I'm not standing up, depending on the gig. So that's with the right foot. And then I've got a tambourine with the left. I sometimes use a service bell with the feet as well. I saw a jug band doing that somewhere. And then guitar and harp. So yeah, there's quite a bit of multitasking. going on and that sort of bled over into the into the band as well so with the rigmarole as i'll use the i'll use the suitcase and the feet percussion and then switch it up and play washboard sometimes so i've been i enjoy the washboard and more recently i've been using a stand-up snare drum with cowbell and woodblock so it keeps expanding really yeah
SPEAKER_02:so those percussions uh you see these guys playing percussion so many little toys pulled out the bag isn't it's incredible
SPEAKER_01:Well, I have a suitcase full. Yeah, I'm collecting more all the time. But that's, yeah, a bit of novelty at a gig. With the jug band style and old blues, I think that stuff goes down
SPEAKER_02:quite well. Oh, it's very entertaining, definitely. Oh, thanks. So, I mean, clearly your drumming background has helped you be able to do this, to play the drums. Like you say, you've got a suitcase drum. So you'd say people need a good basis to be able to take this on, or is it something you could do at a basic level, do you think, without too much training?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. A start would be... I'm sure not everyone wants to become a one-man band, but actually getting the feet going, and I'll often work on this with my students, it's almost like walking. If you can get a right, left, right, left with the feet, and the right's doing one and three, and the left's doing two and four, doing something that simple can not only help your groove, it's going to build your internal sense of rhythm. And if you wanted to play solo, you'd have an accompaniment there straight away. strap a tambourine on your left foot, and then you've got something doing the two and four. So there's quite a lot of nice amount of solo. So if you wanted to do blues repertoire, you could accompany yourself with the feet and strengthen the groove at the same time. So yeah, I'd really recommend that as an approach.
SPEAKER_02:And clearly this matches very well to the jug band style, which is something that you play. So talking about some of the different styles you do play, clearly jug band, which we define as kind of 1920s, 1930s. Would you sort of describe it as a kind of early blues form Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:although, I mean, you could obviously you can argue about these things, the origins as people do. You could say it's a bit more based on trad jazz. A lot of the musicians were playing jazz and then sort of formed a skiffle. But of course, there's the strong elements of blues in there as well. And especially, especially sort of Piedmont blues and East Coast stuff and ragtime. So there's a lot of fusion there, ragtime chord progressions. Obviously, ragtime's a big part of that East Coast blues because they were exposed to those sort of more varied styles than, say, in the Mississippi. So there's a big element of that that comes into
SPEAKER_05:jog band. Jog band.
SPEAKER_02:Right, and so you play other styles as well, which we'll get into. You're playing old-timey, bluegrass, sadical. We'll get into that in a second, but just talking a little bit about what influenced you then on the harmonica. Was it the jug band players that really got you interested in learning to play the harmonica more?
SPEAKER_01:Actually, I think probably the first sort of notable harp recording, there's a guy called Rory McLeod, a great harp player I'm sure you've heard of. He's been on the
SPEAKER_02:podcast, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, right. Oh, fantastic. I must listen to that one. Okay, I missed that. I heard a track of his called Love Like a Rock. I'd never heard the harmonica played in that way before. So I heard that recording and that, yeah, that just really opened up that, wow. Then listening to quite a lot of blues players like Howlin' Wolf, and sort of jamming the blues a lot. And then I got into bluegrass and old-timey music and just started taking to a harmonica to those jams. I was playing guitar a lot when I got into bluegrass, probably sort of like eight or ten years ago, and then took my harp with me to jams.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I read somewhere that you had a few lessons with a few people in London there, one of which is Will Greener, who was a really good player.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Will was a massive influence. Well, actually, he was running a group which I started going to called London Harps, which was a bunch of harmonica players who'd meet up. And it was a very sort of low cost grassroots affair. We'd meet up and share ideas. And he started being the main workshop leader there. So I learned a lot from him. And then I actually ended up, I joined a band, the Mark Harrison band, where he was playing harp and I was playing drums.
UNKNOWN:Oh,
SPEAKER_05:I
SPEAKER_01:ended up doing four albums with Mark and two of those were with Will and a lot of gigs. So I got to listen to his playing a lot. I still rate him as one of the finest harmonica players around. Some of the recordings on his early albums are really, really phenomenal playing. He was a great mentor and taught me a lot.
SPEAKER_02:So as you say there, you were playing with Mark Harrison. Was that one of your, well, it sounds like you played in a few bands. Was that the first band you played harmonica with?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, apart from sort of occasional jamming. So when Will left the band, I started playing a bit of harp at the same time as playing drums. And that actually coincided for the last album. I was sort of getting out of drums and doing that. I'd started the one man band. So I was playing more harp and then went to just on the last album I did with Mark. And that would have been 2018. 18, I think, then I just played harp and sang backing vocals on that, following in Will's footsteps, which wasn't easy.
SPEAKER_02:So you recorded four albums, as you say, with Mark Harrison. So on drums, the first two on drums, I think, were you playing harmonica on the last two albums? Were you playing drums as well on those two albums?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, actually drums on the penultimate album. Then he actually, he got another drummer in for the last album and I just ended up doing harp and vocals on that one. Yeah, the panoramic view.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was a great time playing with Mark and we did lots of festivals and some nice gigs. For sure, yeah, Will was a really tremendous player. A militant tongue blocker. Were you playing a full drum kit with this band? Well, yeah, my full drum kit is sort of stripped down to be a kick, snare, hi-hats, and then a bit of percussion. You know, as a drummer, you're often left to whatever's in the venue, really. So poor drummers get a rough deal, I think. You can't always take your kit to a festival. So often you just use what's there. And I frequently used to find that often like toms were so out of tune that it was just easier not to use them. And I think for a lot of blues and roots you know it's kind of stripped down drumming approach as well so I'd play quite simply on the drums so I didn't really need an Iron Maiden sized kit to play with him.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah great so it was before this then that you started playing solo and is that how you started performing you were doing solo stuff first were you?
SPEAKER_01:For the one man band yeah so I actually had a support show for Mark at the Green Note Cafe which is a nice little venue in Camden Town North London I think it was my first proper gig as a one-man band. since then i've played at quite a lot of unexpected places various festivals and a fair few venues around london sort of takes a back seat now with the rigmarolas my trio being the main focus
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:so you know sometimes i said i tend to i bought gigs for the rigmarolas as the main focus but you know sometimes a venue will want to just a solo artist or depend on budget so i'll i'll do solo gigs as well so it depends on the occasion really
SPEAKER_02:sure yeah and so picking out some of the songs you do as a solo artist so there's a song called hammond's place which has got some nice low rhythmic
SPEAKER_03:harmonica in there and
SPEAKER_02:where's this song come from
SPEAKER_01:it was quite old timey influence definitely at a time when I was listening to a lot of old time music and that was inspired actually by my local local butchers and deli when I was living I was living on the old boat and it was the boat was sinking slowly I should add but the tide would come in so we'd have to pump the water out the boats when the tide was in and then the tide would go out it was never too dramatic unless it was winter but I would I'd walk down the deli in the mornings to get a visions and i came up with that tune as i was i'd walk down the deli and just play my harp along the riverside and that's that tune just emerged at that time yeah so i recorded that one's on my ep and uh yeah i still play it now
SPEAKER_02:good one another one i picked out from your solo is um born in the wrong time so This is where you're playing guitar and harmonica and a rack and singing. So is this linked to your love of the older music? Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I'd say a little bit. That one's sort of semi-autobiographical. and uh the the song's based on there's an idea of a i believe they call it generational dysphoria where where some people think that they could be born in a completely different time so i did read this on the internet so it might not be true but you know you'll come across say someone will think they they should have been born as a medieval witch in the 17th century and uh you know people really believed this and i thought actually you know maybe maybe there's a little bit of that in more people than we think we associate themselves with uh with another time. So yeah, that's where that came from.
SPEAKER_02:Great. Yeah. So your current band now is the Rigmarollers, which you've released so far one album with. So what's the lineup with this and what sort of music you're playing with these guys?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So the Rigmarollers actually started as a duo with myself and Julian Marshall. We were playing in an old time string band for a while. So we were quite into the old time Appalachian stuff. And then we got into, well, Julian's especially got more into into Ragtime music, and obviously I've always been into blues. So we formed the duo The Rigmarolders and we were playing quite a few shows and we were busking quite a lot down by the river, down by the Thames, which was always nice. And then we got joined by our friend Ewan on the sousaphone. So then it sort of went up a notch with the sousaphone and the trio was formed. And yeah, we recorded our first album, Mr. Crump Don't Like It. That was 2020. which has been pretty well received since. And we're currently working on our new album. So we're sousaphone, washboard, obviously suitcase drum. Julian was playing a resonator acoustic guitar, although he's just gone. He's just turned into a traitor and gone electric recently. And I play harmonica and sing harmonica. So yeah, there's a few instruments going on between us. Julian can also play fiddle and mandolin. So there's some fiddle and mandolin on the first album, although recently he's playing a lot more guitar and I'm sticking on the harmonica. So that's kind of where we're going at the moment
SPEAKER_02:with that. Another feature of this band is that you play kazoo.
UNKNOWN:Kazoo.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, people love it or hate it, but the kazoo finds its way in. So it's quite a jug band thing. And nose flute may also get an outing. It's another love or hate instrument. They're very divisive instruments. There's the nose flute. Sounds better in a band context. You'll have to believe me.
SPEAKER_02:Just picking out a few songs on this Mr. Crump Don't Like It album. So Mr. Crump Don't Like It is actually a song that I performed in two bands myself, a fantastic song about the prohibition in America, so it works really well. And on this, there's a good demo of you doing your bells and whistles. Mr. Crump Don't Like It
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a great song, that one. I didn't realise anyone else did it. That's cool.
SPEAKER_02:And then a song I saw you perform live, which I really loved and I've since discovered is a Fats Waller song, is When Somebody Thinks You're Wonderful. And you sing that very nicely, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, when somebody thinks you're wonderful, what a difference in your day. Seems as though your troubles disappear, all
SPEAKER_00:like a feather
SPEAKER_01:in your... That's a lovely song to play. It's a great old ballad, always goes down well. And yeah, I really enjoy singing that song. That was one of those which, I don't know why we started playing that, actually. Yeah, it always goes down well at gigs. So yeah, we thought we'd put that one on the album. Yeah, and then Nobody Knows You When You're Down
SPEAKER_02:and Out. I don't know, is that originally a Nina Simone song?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I don't know. It's not originally Eric Clapton. I know that much. Even though I think he still owns the rights to it. I think Bessie Smith did a notable version of that.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Although actually the version on the record was actually inspired by a video I saw of Peter Madcap Ruth.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Who does a great solo version with guitar and harp. So it was actually inspired by his version.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then finally on this album, I've got you a little clip of you playing Save Me Some.
SPEAKER_01:It's a Jed Davenport song for anyone who hasn't heard him. He's an incredible player. I think there might have been a time where I tried to work out a bit of what he was doing, but then realized, like I do with a lot of these old players. Part laziness and part wanting to be a bit more creative. I listen to a bit and then sort of go about it my own way and play it in my own style. But his style's very idiosyncratic and he's doing these growls and the phrasing is just incredible. I really, really recommend him as a player to listen to. He's really, really something special.
UNKNOWN:...
SPEAKER_02:So we'll move on then to talking about your teaching. You've touched on it a few times. As we say, you live on a barge on the river or canal there, and you call your harmonica school the Harmonica Barge, and that's the website, and I'll put a link onto that in the podcast page. And touching on, as we talked about your harmonica education earlier on, I believe you sort of did some sort of focus on music education. So how have you applied that to your harmonica teaching?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, we did quite a bit of teaching even at college as part of the diploma. So we were actually assigned another student to go and do some one-on-one teaching with. I taught guitarist drums and then he taught me guitar. So there was lesson exchanges and then we'd sort of review and evaluate and have some tuition. So that was good. And then For part of my degree, we actually went into schools and we did a bunch of teaching in schools as work experience, even though a lot of that was percussion at the time. That was a very interesting experience. I've been teaching really ever since I was at college, so for almost 20 years now, starting with drums, moving on to more harmonica and guitar and some ukulele. and percussion and singing as well. So I've taught a fair bit, but now mostly just focused on the harmonica.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I saw you at the recent Harping by the Sea in February in Brighton in the UK and I attended one of your workshops and yeah, I thought you had a really good approach to your teaching in the workshop. You're very inclusive and really, I think you got the best out of people. So that was a really nice workshop you did.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thank you. That was the advanced one. I was a bit scared about that workshop. Because, you know, when they label the harmonica players advanced and I thought, well, probably... A lot of the people in here have, you know, it all depends how you judge what an advanced player is. Is it a technical thing? Is it something else? Is it down to experience? So, you know, it's kind of a crude category in some ways. But I recognize that a lot of people in a workshop will be more skilled than myself in playing the harmonica. But what I try and do with the workshop is really bring in other people's skills as well, because I feel part of teaching is not just to, you know, to conduct a masterclass, but it's actually, it's about skill sharing. So it's about a group of people coming together and seeing what skills they can offer each other. And actually that was a big part of London Harps. I always felt that the group, you know, it was a nice meetup where people could come together and talk because of course every player's got different things and skills to offer. So I always, I always like to try and incorporate different members of the group and to bring out part of their style in in the best way possible
SPEAKER_02:yeah i used to attend a a group meetup where i used to do some teaching myself uh in bracknell uh something we used to call harp jam and this was before the london harmonica's group and i met my really good friend phil lewy who went to the harmonica group you probably you probably met phil there
SPEAKER_01:yeah he was there in the early days so phil and uh another great player called joff watkins they were both instrumental in the in the group in the early days
SPEAKER_02:and so So what you do offer quite a lot on your Harmonica Barge teaching website is videos that people can purchase and learn from the videos that you've recorded. And on here, you cover quite a lot of different styles. So it'll be interesting to talk through some of those styles. So you mentioned earlier on the fox chase. So you've got a fox chase one. You're talking about how that's all about the groove. Maybe tell us a little bit about a fox chase.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure. So what I'm really trying to do in the in-depth lessons, well, when I started the regular YouTube channel, I realised that I think what appeals about YouTube videos is they're short and concise, but I realized I had a lot more to offer in terms of techniques and then a systematic approach to learning a style. So that's where the in-depth lessons really started. Again, so with something like the Fox Chase, a lot of that is really working on the fundamentals of getting a super strong groove with a good And then building on top of that, again, in quite a systematic way, even though I love creativity in music, but I feel that I've always learned best from good teachers I've had when they've been quite systematic in the approach and the difficulty level rises quite slowly. That's always an important thing. So something like the Fox Chase, building that groove and having a selection of licks, two-bar licks, part of those will be inspired by other versions of the Fox Chase that I've heard. Some of them will just be made up out of scales, but they'll all try and be within that style. That's what I'm aiming for.
SPEAKER_02:And then you've got another video on Cajun harmonica, and there's actually an interview on you, which I'll put a link to. And you mentioned your father early on, he plays drums. I believe he was in one of the first Cajun bands in the UK?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So the longest running Cajun band in the UK, I believe. So they were called Our Cajun and the Zydeco Brothers. So it's actually set up by an accordion player by the name of Chris Hall. who's featured with Paul McCartney on Jules Holland. And he sort of does all things Cajun in the UK. He's still got a few bands. So they were going for a while. Yeah, I certainly grew up listening to a lot of Cajun and Zydeco music. That's definitely been an influence in my harmonica playing. And I really love how Zydeco grooves sit on the harmonica. And... bluesy Zydeco grooves. I think they go really well. when you're mixing them with blues licks and chords and obviously the splits and that kind of rhythmic style I really love.
SPEAKER_02:And then you do some gospel. You do a I Shall Not Be Moved, some gospel harmonica.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's been a, excuse the pun, that's been a bit of a revelation. But I just came across this scene of gospel harmonica players and preachers who played harmonica. So one in particular, Elder Roma Wilson.
SPEAKER_04:Ain't
SPEAKER_01:it a shame? Ain't it a shame?
SPEAKER_04:I just
SPEAKER_01:came across his playing and it just felt really fresh and really different and really groovy. I hadn't heard anything like that. So part of the fun of teaching that was just being able to learn it myself. well, to the best of my abilities. And I think that's where it comes in with a lot of these players, like Peg Leg Sam is another one, these groovy, rhythmic harmonica players. I get to listen to that and try and pick out some of that, those ideas, and I'll be incorporating that into my own playing. And then I can try and build a nice lesson out of that. So yeah, the gospel, the gospel's really, that stuff's really cool. So yeah, Aldo Roma Wilson, the Rev Dan Smith is another one. I'm sure there's lots more that I haven't encountered, but yeah, it's some fantastic music.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I interviewed Todd Parrott, who's a current player in the US now, who plays a lot of gospel music, and it sounds fantastic on the harmonica.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm aware of him. He's a phenomenal player. Yeah, there's a big gospel scene there in the States. But this is quite... Quite a niche thing for the harmonica preachers. It was certainly something that I didn't know about. So yeah, it was quite exciting to discover.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it'd be great to get a preacher using a harmonica during one of your sermons. I'd love to see that.
SPEAKER_01:Come revive that in Britain. Yeah. Maybe you get more people into church over here if there's some good blues music. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely. And then old-timey music is something else you've specialised in. You do a song called Cindy.
UNKNOWN:MUSIC PLAYS
SPEAKER_02:So old-timey is kind of like it's melodic tunes-based approach, isn't it, to playing a harmonica?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. So the melodies and tunes are king. And I really got into that through going to those bluegrassy sessions. Obviously, the bluegrass and old-time are kind of similar in terms of their repertoire. So there was a lot of tunes played at the bluegrass sessions. And to join in, really, unless you're amazingly fast to pick things up by ear, it helps to really learn the tunes. I got into those kind of styles. It's very much a niche scene with old time, but actually a lot of old recordings, you know, again, sort of going back to 30s and 40s. There's some really great harmonica, people like Dr. Humphrey Bate and his Possum Hunters. They've all got great names. He was a banjo player. A lot of sort of tongue block playing in first position. And that was something that I was into quite heavily for a year or two. And I took some lessons with a great player. I believe he's in Arkansas now by the name of Seth Shoemate. I think you pronounce his last name. Sorry, Seth. He's a wonderful old time player. And I had some lessons with him and that was really, that was something radically new that I hadn't tried. And that's become a big influence on me, but I've sort of gone back to playing. I guess I'm more of a blues sort of second position player originally so i've tried to take a lot of those techniques melodic techniques and then blend them with more bluesy bluesy stuff and the kind of zydeco style as well rather you know i still dabble a little bit in first position oh yeah i really appreciate that style of playing
SPEAKER_02:yeah you've also got a country video so as you mentioned that you know you've covered various different styles on your teaching videos here is this more to introduce people to the different styles but you know you maybe you've gone back to playing more blue stuff yourself
SPEAKER_01:yeah that's definitely a strong element so i like i like exposing people to these these more unusual styles i mean that suits me and the the kind of music that i like listening to in terms of harmonica although i like a lot of varied music and i enjoy listening to modern harmonica players as well you know a lot of i've been recently exploring some of uh howard levy stuff after listening to your great interview and that's completely mind-blowing a lot of his folk stuff special odd time signatures so So I definitely have a lot of respect for those sort of more progressive modern players as well. But the old timey stuff, yeah, I like digging into those old recordings, using that as a vehicle for my own creativity and yeah, to teach that and share that wealth of music with other people. So hopefully it inspires them to create their own music out of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I like those different styles. I do play some old time harmonica myself and I think it just gives you a bit of a different approach, doesn't it, to your home monica playing rather than they're just you know kind of forever playing blues licks and things
SPEAKER_01:absolutely and i think learning melodies is just a great thing to do regardless of the style you know even if you're really into blues and learning to play you know vocal melodies is something that i really like to do with blues to to go off it and and build on it even if you don't really know what's going on in the song so that's that's a big part of my approach the melodic style of playing and it gets you just playing different combinations of notes and you know i'm sure you found movements in a way like if you try and learn a bluegrass fiddle tune on the harmonica you're going to move on the instrument in a way that's unusual to you and that's always good to to expand your repertoire and change up your approach you know so i think that's that's just a great thing to do all around
SPEAKER_02:yep absolutely yeah great then so people can check out your harmonica barge teaching website i'm going to put a link on to that so moving on a little bit some of this session where you've done some session work over there in london there you've done a recording for a bb radio 4 program you've um recorded some other things you also i found you playing on a uh austin vince motorcyclist uh sort of video which you're playing some bluesy stuff on there
SPEAKER_01:Oh, right. Yeah, that was actually a year or two back. That was a really nice experience. Austin takes groups of motorbikers over to the Pyrenees and does these trips. So he's a bit of a filmmaker as well. So that was a promo video. That was a really nice session. We just went in with a bunch of musicians I'd never met before, put a few tracks down in a day. I think we got four tracks down and then a short sort of sound clip as well for the film. But he's very much into 60 production that was quite a part of that something which i've i've not really dabbled in that much but i was you know i was happy to go along with whatever he wanted so yeah that was a that was a really fun thing to do harmonica wise do you just play diatonics you play any chromatic or anything else well people keep giving me um students or you know someone's always got like their grandpa had this harmonica line around covered in dust and i politely accept them although now i've actually had to you know i've got a whole box of these things now so i'm trying not to take any more I do have a chromatic. Someone gave me a Super 64, actually, a lady who I worked for. And it was her dad's. He was touring around Austria in the 50s with a little harmonica group. So it'd be lovely. I do plan on one day maybe trying to learn a tune on it, but not enough hours in the day. But one day, hopefully.
SPEAKER_02:So the question I ask each time, Ed, is this 10-minute question. So if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?
SPEAKER_01:Wow, that's a tricky one. I might be a contrarian actually i would say half of that don't practice just think about practicing sometimes just listening to music and even imagining what you would play over it especially if you don't have much time can make you really hungry for playing and then use the other five minutes to try and play what you'd imagine yourself playing whatever it is
SPEAKER_02:and what about any sort of practice routines you know specifically on harmonica have you followed any practice routines maybe earlier on when you were playing or now do you follow any practice routines
SPEAKER_01:yeah i mean my practice is quite a haphazard for harmonica to be honest I just play I play whenever I can as often as I can it tends to lean these days towards specific things that I'm working on songs that I'm writing and if some of those need obviously a little bit of technical adjustment or help so you know I've been for example there's a song on the new Rigmorolas album which is in first position it's got a lot of splits and blow bends so I've been working on tongue block blow bending to try and get some of those techniques so it's quite the practice is quite focused for a goal, whatever musical goal I've got. And then it runs in phases. So I've actually been inspired to play some 12th position recently after getting into a little bit of jazz, hearing some of those jazz melodies and realizing, wow, having a little bit of that on the harp would be quite nice. So I'd say that kind of playing is probably my weakness, that single note melodic playing. So yeah, it's always good to work on your weaknesses as well as your strengths. I'm never, ever short of things to be in inspired to practice, you know, there's always, there's always a thousand things that I feel I could work on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Not enough time in the day, as you say. So we'll get on to you talking about the last section now and talking about gear. So first of all, what harmonica do you like to play?
SPEAKER_01:So I like the, any kind of Marine band style harp. I mean, I tried to cross over a few years back and I've never, I've never looked back since, but I've, Over the last few years, I've been trying to tweak my harps a little bit. Maybe I'll be rich enough to buy custom harps one day. I don't know. I've been trying to tweak my own and I've realized that having custom combs is quite nice. So mostly crossovers with an Andrew, I think you pronounce his last name, Zayats, the Canadian chap who makes the combs. And his videos have been a wealth of inspiration for working on harmonicas. Crossovers with one of his combs is my mainstay.
SPEAKER_02:Of course, you'll be making your own combs
SPEAKER_01:now. I mean, because I've got some harps that I've worked on and I've tweaked them quite nicely, I think you then want everything to be of that standard. So it's quite hard to go back and play something which doesn't respond very well. So I've been doing a lot of read profiling. It's a slow process. I don't know if you work on harps yourself, but I hope I'm getting better, but progress feels very slow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I do some setup myself. And basically when I buy a new harmonica, I won't play it until I've set it up. So I pretty much do that every time I get a harmonica. So yeah. right yeah it's definitely worth it for me i mean you're seeing the benefits as well by the sounds of it
SPEAKER_01:yeah for sure and i think again it depends on the style you play so i think if you play a lot of splits then tuning is a thing because unless you don't mind the heart being out of tune but it's nice when the when the splits are well in tune so that's something to take a lot of time on i don't i don't really overblow with such a lot i've been dabbling a little bit recently but that that would be another thing you know having to set them up for that so i haven't i haven't reached that stage yet but yeah a lot a lot of read profiling for sure trying to make sure they're responsive
SPEAKER_02:well if you're going to take on the jazz you might have to get into the overblowing so yes yeah that goes um what about positions are you playing you know with the different styles you're playing specifically as well you you know you're learning using different positions for those
SPEAKER_01:yeah second is uh is my mainstay i dabble in first for rag rag timey stuff and old timey stuff that's that's really nice and a lot of jug bands as well it's like that high-end kind of first position playing also i really like really like fifth position and that's something that I've been managing to apply a lot of my sort of second position tongue block playing and adapt that for fifth and that's something that's really yeah I'm really really enjoying that I'm working on a lot of that stuff with students at the moment and I find in some ways you know we all kind of go for third position first for a minor minor style but actually fifth position in some ways is more intuitive if you're used to playing in second position because you've got that you know the relative minor if you play second position major kind of blue grassy style if you switch that round and playing fifth then you're into the relative minor and i find that's really useful for a lot of songs that that go to that you know switch between major and minor so yeah i'm really enjoying that at the moment and then dabbling as i say a little a little bit in 12th very occasionally in fourth
SPEAKER_02:yeah great no i think you're right about fifth position that's a really useful one and uh but what about um different tunings for harmonicas
SPEAKER_01:actually yeah i've occasionally buy altered tunings and i think i went to i went to a brendan power gig and i was inspired by his his playing so i have uh i have a power bender but i've been really enjoying some of the minor tunes harmonicas as well i've got a harmonic minor and i've been sort of working on this tune which is in seven four at the moment on it and i think that really kind of suits this minor style so But yeah, I like this harmonic minor's fun.
SPEAKER_02:And you've already mentioned that Will Greener was a tongue-blocking militant. Does that mean you're a dedicated tongue-blocker?
SPEAKER_01:I'm not a militant tongue-blocker. Although when I was learning with Will, I mean, he was so phenomenal tongue-block player. He had that massive tone and this deep kind of rhythmic style. He said, oh, that's the only way to play. So I didn't have any other teachers at the time. So for two years, I did nothing but tongue-block. And I think that's actually a really good thing sometimes to have that zero tolerance approach. And I'll say that to students because obviously there's a lot of people who sort of pucker and then they want to get into tongue blocking, but they find the bends more difficult and then they're constantly switching between the two. So I think having a period of doing nothing but tongue blocking to make yourself improve at the bends and those other techniques is a really good thing. So I do recommend that to students, but it all depends on style really. And I think as harmonica players, we often analyze things technically too much. and we don't really talk about style enough And I think, you know, if you're judging what kind of techniques, often people say, what should I do? Should I tongue block? And it's really like what I would say, what kind of harmonica do you like to hear? Who are the players you like to hear? And the best thing to do is emulate whatever techniques you like. You like to hear yourself. And if you let style lead you in that way, you know, if you really like Charlie McCoy and sort of fast, linear, single note playing, melodic playing, then you might want to play a lot of pucker and and really lean into that style. If you like a lot of the more sort of old timey kind of dirty notes, splits and octaves, then definitely leaning into the tongue blocking is a good thing. Because I got into bluegrass, you know, I often play melodies quite fast on higher harmonicas. And I sort of found that quite a lot of the tongue block nuance would sometimes be lost. So actually you want those kind of sharp, percussive bends that really cut through. And I don't consider myself to be great at that style, but I'll definitely use that now in that setting and And now I like to use both approaches. All depends whatever you want for the style, really. What about amplification? Well, I'm probably the sort of worst person for gear. I don't really class myself as much of a gear geek, but I do have an amp. Recently with the Rigmarollers, I sort of found that it's quite nice to have that handheld, more aggressive harp sound for a few tracks. But I've just been using a Fishman Mini Loudbox, which is like a 60 watt amp. And that does me for guitar. And I'll just take a line out of that if I'm playing a but that's okay for small small gigs so that's been fine i've got a blows me away sm58 which does the job fine as a mic i use a bulletini on a rack as well if i'm playing solo so that's slightly different but i also actually just i just bought a little valve amp because sometimes when i'm doing a solo gig it's quite helpful to have that extra amplification i can just use the fishman for the vocals i've got a little laney cob 10 not know much about valve amps that sounds pretty cool but i've yet to really road test it properly but we've We've got a whole bunch of summer gigs and festivals coming up. Sure, it'll get a good airing this summer. I sing into a regular vocal mic, and then I cut the 58 that blows me away, 58. I use a heartbreak pedal, so that gives me a little bit of grit. if I want that kind of sound. And I've recently, I've got an octave pedal as well, which is great fun. So I've been using that in a few songs. Actually, that one was inspired by Mad Cat. He uses that to great effect. And also from Wade Schumann from Hazmat Medina, I think is a wonderful creative player. And they're just a great band. So I was inspired by his use of the octave pedal as well. So I've been dabbling in that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Hazmat Medina is a great player. They're touring Europe again this summer. So yeah, you and check them out but unfortunately not coming to the uk so uh
SPEAKER_01:yeah i locked on the tour list yeah what a shame i did wonder about trying to get over to europe maybe for one of the gigs but yeah i haven't investigated further
SPEAKER_02:yeah so you mentioned effects so do you use any other effects any reverb or anything like that delay
SPEAKER_01:well yeah i've actually got i've got a reverb pedal i've just got a boss um rv6 i think it's an rv6 rv5 one of those although the fisherman has reverb a bit of reverb on the amp which seems to be okay someone gave me a delay pedal as well so i'm yet yet to to try. try that. But yeah, there's a whole world out there of pedals I can see.
SPEAKER_02:Certainly is.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if I'll ever have an enormous pedal board. I mean, it's a lot of stuff to remember to press with the feet when you're also playing drums with your feet. That's one of the problems I find with pedals. If I can just leave them on, then that's the ideal scenario.
SPEAKER_02:And then, so final question there, in your future plan, you mentioned that you've got a new album coming out with the Rigmarollers. When can we expect to hear that?
SPEAKER_01:So that'll be this year at some point. I better not say a date as we're still Recording is still well underway, but hopefully late summer, autumn would be nice. But yeah, we're really excited about that. And we're already gigging a lot of those songs. So yeah, it's all coming together nicely.
SPEAKER_02:So thanks so much for joining me today, Ed Hopwood. Thanks,
SPEAKER_01:Neil. Really nice to chat.
SPEAKER_02:Once again, thanks to Zydle for sponsoring the podcast. Be sure to check out their great range of harmonicas and products at www.zydle1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zydle Harmonicas. Thanks to Ed for sharing his knowledge on different harmonica styles and for his tips on applying rhythm to our playing. And thanks again for listening. Remember to check out the Spotify playlist where many of the tracks from the episodes are available. Scroll to the end of the list for the latest editions. Ed has been kind enough to share an early cut from his upcoming Rigmorolas album. This great instrumental has a great title. Duck's Blood Breakdown.
UNKNOWN:.
SPEAKER_05:That's fun! That's fun!