Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

William Clarke retrospective, part 2, with Paul Barry

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 105

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Paul Barry joins me again on episode 105, for another look at the life and career of the great William Clarke.

Paul has now released his biography: Blowin’ Like Hell: The William Clarke Story, writing it from insights he gained from Bill’s wife Jeanette, and Bill's children, and the musicians who played with him, as well as many others.

Bill dedicated his life from the age of sixteen to become the bluesman he dreamed he could be, and he worked extremely hard at it. He honed his craft from woodshedding at home, attending the blues clubs of LA, becoming the protege of George Smith, and pushing himself hard to create his unique voice both vocally and especially on the diatonic and chromatic harmonica. All this despite his personal demons, to become one of the leading players of his generation.

Links:
Paul’s website:
https://www.paulbarryblues.com/

Where to buy the biography:
https://www.paulbarryblues.com/william-clarke.html

Blues Blast magazine review of the William Clarke book:
https://www.bluesblastmagazine.com/issue-18-7-february-15-2024/?fbclid=IwAR3lctX2K7JrotYoAczEp_JE_rIktqg6QejnVrSMR52OYIvKiEM-GeyJS9Q

William Clarke Remembered Facebook Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/171827912850208/

The first William Clarke retrospective with Paul:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com/william-clarke-retrospective-with-paul-barry/

Videos:
Bill playing Lollipop Mama at the San Fran Blues Festival in 1991:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrXrsmUWAGM

Interview with Bill, and concert footage from Byron Bay festival in Australia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfgWsyKvC3o

Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS

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SPEAKER_03:

Paul Barry joins me again on episode 105 for another look at the life and career of the great William Clarke. Paul has now released his biography, Blowing Like Hell, The William Clarke Story, writing it from insights he has gained from Bill's wife, Jeanette, and Bill's children and the musicians who played with him, as well as many others. Bill dedicated his life from the age of 16 to become the bluesman he dreamed he could be and he worked extremely hard at it. He honed his craft from woodshedding at home, attending the blues clubs of LA, becoming the protege of George Smith and pushing himself hard to create his unique voice both vocally and especially on the diatonic and chromatic harmonica. All this despite his personal demons to become one of the leading players of his generation. This podcast is sponsored by Seidel Harmonicas. Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas. Hello Paul Barry and welcome back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, Neil. Nice to hear your voice again. Thanks for having me back.

SPEAKER_03:

No, it's a pleasure. We last talked on, well, the last interview we did was about Bill Clark, which was released in June 2022, episode 64. So we're back to talk more about Bill and more to the point about the book that you've managed to release since that time. So congratulations on that. Tell us about the book.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks, Neil. It was quite a long project, about two and a half year project, but I finally released the last one. went live last December of this past year so so far things have been going well with it and it's been well received just real happy to get it done and just just wanted to bring Bill's music and him as a person to light for more people I think the book accomplished that

SPEAKER_03:

definitely yeah I've read the book myself just recently and it's a fantastic achievement so well done I've seen lots of good press about it and you know lots of people saying nice things about it as well so yeah definitely recommend people go and buy that and and and have a read. So just before we start talking about that, where can people get hold of it?

SPEAKER_00:

They can get hold of it at, I have some retail outlets, Rock and Ron's Music, Blue Beat Records, Bear Records in Europe is going to be picking it up, Alligator Records, and also on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, some other online retailers like that will have that available as well too as an e-book and also as a printed copy.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, fantastic. So again, congratulations. I'm always very envious of people who managed to write a book about harmonica and about blues so I hope to do the same myself one day but tell us about the process then I remember we talked about in the first interview that you were planning on writing an instructional book to Bill and that's kind of where the idea was born

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, thanks, Neil. I hope you write a book someday. It's a great accomplishment. It's a lot of work, but I'm glad I was able to accomplish that. But before Bill died, he and I were working on a harmonic instruction book. A few years back, I decided to try to pick it up again and see if I could finish it. And then I thought, there's a lot of instruction material out there online and a lot of books and material. I thought it'd be more interesting to look at his life story and write about him as the person he was and the musician he was because I think he died in 1996 so that was before really before the internet age kicked in and I don't think he's as widely known as he should be and that was part of the mindset I had for doing the book just to bring him his music into light for a lot of people especially harmonica players that would really appreciate hearing his music and hearing about the man himself

SPEAKER_03:

definitely yeah and it's very inspiring to talk about someone like Billy I'm a massive admirer of him he's a fantastic player one of the best for sure and certainly one of the best modern players. So, yeah, you're bringing that to life and really showing how he went about it as well is really key, wasn't it, about how he applied himself so much, you know, and the challenges he went through. And so, yeah, it's a really fascinating read and the tough road to becoming a blues musician.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it sure was. And when I started out doing the book, I knew Bill. I met Bill in 1983 when he came to Minnesota. My band opened up for him. He was with George Smith, and he and I became good friends, and I lived with him in 1985 out in California for a little while. When I started doing the book I didn't realize his life story and when I started going back and recreating his life story it was just a fascinating story and he really came up from pretty tough surroundings and his story is really inspirational and he had a lot of ups and downs in his career but he managed to overcome a lot of that and became like you said one of the greatest players of his generation. The book was a lot more than I expected it to be, but it's such a great story. I was glad to accomplish that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and so the challenge is writing a book. How did you go about that? How did you do your research on Bill? I see you did quite a lot of interviews, didn't you? You list them in the back. So, yeah, tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's basically, you're recreating someone's story from when they were born. And unfortunately, when I wrote this, Bill wasn't around. So I had to dig back. His wife, Jeanette, was a big source of information for me. And just being a musician myself, I thought it's really fascinating to talk to musicians that played with him and the people that knew him early on and just to see how his life story evolved. And so, like you said, I did a lot of interviews with family members as daughter Gina and his son Willie and friends of his and his wife Jeanette was a big source and a lot of musicians that played and recorded with Bill so I really recreated his whole life and found out a lot about kind of a hardscrabble youth that he had and it was just really an interesting story but it was just going back and digging through articles that people had written about him interviews he had done and myself knowing him as a person but just those interviews were great source of information for my book.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and it must be quite daunting in a way to, you know, with Jeanette being his wife, you know, and his family, his children, to write a book. You must feel the pressure to make it good, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, Jeanette was so supportive. She's such a great person. There's a great website out there, William Clark Remembered, and she has over 4,000 members, and she's always kept Bill's memory and music alive with that website. Out of my love for her and Bill, I wanted to make sure this book was done right And so there is that pressure that you want to do the book as well as you possibly can. So it was a lot of long nights, a lot of weekends. And I'm not a writer by trade, but I really put my heart and soul into it and wanted to make it as good as possible for Bill.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and you got a day job, right? So you were doing this in your spare time?

SPEAKER_00:

That's correct. And also part-time musician.

UNKNOWN:

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SPEAKER_00:

I've got a lot of things on my plate, but this kind of took precedence just because he's been gone for quite a long time and I just talked to other harmonica players. Some players don't know who he is, which is a crying shame, so I just want to make sure to get his name out there and his music out there so others can appreciate the genius of his music and the type of person he was.

SPEAKER_03:

So, I mean, it's a bit like, you know, with my podcast interviews, I, you know, I research my person, do a sort of profile on each one. But that's much probably more light touch when you're going into the depth of writing a whole book about somebody. So I feel I learn so much about every episode I do when I interview these different people on the podcast. But so having written a book about Bill, what do you think you learned from him about playing the harmonica and music?

SPEAKER_00:

One thing I really learned, I knew from Bill, from living with him and just as a person, how hard a worker was, but how hard a worker he was, I should say. Just going back and talking to musicians that he worked with and talking to Jeanette and just recreating his life story. It was just from the age of 16 when he first picked up a harmonica, his sole purpose in life was to become a bluesman and he put his heart and soul into it and worked extremely hard. But just the level of The dedication he had to being as good as he could be just was really impressive and one time he told me that he would get upset when people would say that he's got God-given talent because he told me that I worked extremely hard to get to where I am and that's what drove me and that's what made me the type of player I am. So he was, I've never seen anybody work to the level that he did to be the type of musician he turned out to be.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you talk in the book about how he would, you know, he would work his day job, which, you know, he quit later on. We'll get on to that. But so he would work his day job and he would get home and he would start and then he would sort of practice four or five hours a night and sort of go into the bathroom and, you know, with a nice reverb in the bathroom and he would sort of practice all through the night and really, you know, really work hard on those chops.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's how it was. I remember when I lived with him, that's the very thing that he would do. And he was such a family man, too. So he was kind of torn between the family and being as good his musician as he could. So he did whatever he could to practice. I mean, there's a part in the book where one of the guys is talking about him practicing at work during his break. So he was just 100% dedicated to music, and it really showed by the amount of work that he put into his music. And a lot of the guys told me that played with him is when they'd go back to the hotel room after their gig is he would tell them that there's still time to practice, that the day is not over. and they'd hear him in his hotel room practicing at night after the gig. So he was 100% dedicated, and I think it really shows in the level of musicianship and the music that he put out over his career.

SPEAKER_03:

Definitely, that's good to hear. When you know something didn't go quite right in the gig, that's the time to go home and practice that little thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly right, Neil.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and so did you get insights into what he would practice? I know he was a massive listener, wasn't he? He listened to lots of swing music and you know horns and organ trios and so he would listen to them and try and emulate those do you know what sort of things specifically he was working on in his practice?

SPEAKER_00:

I know early on you know he was pretty immersed in the Chicago blues and he liked for example you know Big Walter and Junior Wells and of course Little Walter and then as he got more advanced on the instrument well he told me I think I mentioned this in the book too that he said you learn those songs from other harmonica players and then you put those away and then you create your own sound so he was very open to listening to all types of music especially b3 organ players and and tenor saxophone players and like you said big band swing music soul jazz he loved all that stuff one of the things that he really did was listen so he would i know some uh some guys have played with him would tell me that he'd go in his hotel room after after a gig and he'd be listening to tenor saxophone players and trying to play those those phrases that they that he would be hearing and the next night on the gig he would be playing those same phrases that he had heard the night before so i think one thing i really learned is just keep an open mind of all types of instruments and try to create those into your own original sound

SPEAKER_03:

yeah definitely i think um you know quite often in the good players it's that transition early on you work on you know on the great harmonica players and classic players and you work on those and then you sort of branch out to others but he he did that to a uh you know a really extreme degree didn't he and he really did work on those and his chromatic playing is you know is astonishing we We touched on it a little bit in the first interview, where you get a lot of guys playing third position blues chromatic, and then you've got the other side, which is where you've kind of got the full-on jazz, kind of like Toots Thielmans and that style of jazz. But he's in the sort of middle of that, isn't he, where he's kind of playing lots of third position blues chromatic, but it doesn't sound like the usual third chromatic. It's really sort of in the middle of that kind of really jazzy chromatic playing and the sort of third position blues playing.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's exactly right. I had a conversation with Dennis Groenling the other day and asked him about that. He said Bill pretty much stuck in third position, but he was obviously going in that jazz vein, but he still kept that kind of blues playing in his soul, but he was definitely branching out into the jazz playing. And of course, when he started out, George Smith was really the person that showed him how to play those octaves and how to really play blues harmonica in third position. And Bill was just taking it a little bit further by going more in that jazz vein with some of his some of his playing so he definitely was stepping out of the traditional blues playing that we normally hear with blues players playing chromatic

SPEAKER_03:

definitely yeah much more sophisticated and do you know if he you know was he sort of practicing over jazz changes and was he was he going was he practicing that way

SPEAKER_00:

as far as i know he was not he was he didn't know how to read music and i i know one one of the players john marks told me that after one of their gigs that he had he had told bill hey bill you played i can't remember what it was something like a 13th chord or something like that. And Bill said, I did. Wow. You know, so he, I don't think in his mind, he actually knew maybe the musical theory part of it, but he certainly could hear it. And he was playing those types of things. And I know Barry Levinson told me that he could see Bill moving towards more of that soul jazz where songs like Sugar and things like Chittin' Con Carney, songs like that, where you play over the changes, he could see Bill doing that. So I think Bill was moving in that direction. Maybe he didn't know the theory, but in his head, he knew what it no

SPEAKER_03:

definitely yeah and it shows you know again he worked really hard on that and picking them up by ear and in his later albums you know for example his last album The Hard Way he does some great sophisticated chromatic songs swing songs and we talked about The Boss in the first interview and that's probably his real classic one on chromatic but he does a few on the album as well he does Molten Swing which is also an incredible swinging sophisticated song and Walking as well so two really high level chromatic songs, though, which are in this kind of swing band.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly right, Neil. You could see with every album that he did for Alligator, he was kind of getting more into that vein. It's just fascinating. I've always thought about what would Bill be doing now with his music because he was definitely moving it forward and not willing to stand pat and recreate songs that have been done before. Like he said, there's already been a Little Walter. We don't need another Little Walter as great as he was. That's his mindset that I'm going to be William clark and i'm going to create my own music and be original and that's exactly what he did

SPEAKER_03:

but not forgetting he's also a great diatonic player as well and he did you know he definitely played the two you know and even on these later albums when he was really into this kind of swing jazz approach that he was taking there's always diatonic songs you know on these albums like the last album i just mentioned uh evil is a song which you know has diatonic so there's plenty of diatonic as well isn't there mixed in he definitely wanted to do both

SPEAKER_00:

oh right exactly he was a tremendous diatonic player and and before he met george smith he pretty much was strictly diatonic and george really guided him on the chromatic but yeah bill's a terrific diatonic player as well there's no doubt about that

SPEAKER_03:

yeah and you can hear some of the same infants you can hear him doing quite a lot of octaves on the diatonic when he's playing and he's you know that sort of approach where he's playing the the the octaves on the on the chromatic he's putting some of that onto the Daytona.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, he sure does, and you can tell when Bill's playing third position on the diatonic, it's pretty close to sound like a chromatic, so he's getting those big fat octaves and chords, and just the ferocity of his approach is very similar to what he did on the chromatic. You can definitely see a lot of similarities there, but he was very excellent on both the chromatic and the diatonic.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And when he's playing chromatic, was he playing, you know, third position most of the time? Was he playing other, not necessarily call them positions on the chromatic, but, you know, is he, say, playing in the key of G on a C harmonica and things like that? Or was he playing more or less always third position on the chromatic?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a good question because I was wondering about that myself. On the earlier things, you can tell it's third position, like on Tribute to George Smith and, you know, things like that. And I asked Dennis Gruenling about that. He said he pretty much, that Bill's pretty much stuck to third position. But I think maybe as time was going on, maybe he would have looked at some different positions on the chromatic, but I think it was mainly third position on the chromatic.

SPEAKER_03:

So another thing he was really hot on was his performance. And you talk about in the book how he was a protégé of George Smith. He met George. And then, you know, he showed him the ropes. But George was really into the performances, right? He would do the sort of tricks on stage. He would walk along tables, lie down while playing. And so this entertainment factor was a big thing that Bill really picked up as well, yeah?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it sure was, Neil. And also, you can see that with Rod Piazza, too. I mean, they both came up under George Smith. Rod was with George first, and then Bill came along. Yeah, in the book, I talk about that a little bit, how great an entertainer George was. And Bill, he said George necessarily didn't show me a lot of things, but I would watch him night after night and see how he interacted with the crowd, how he'd entertain. He said there could be two people, there could be 2,000 people, that George would give it 100% all the time, and that's something that he really took to heart. But definitely, that was a big part of Bill's show, was that he wanted to give the crowd 100% every night, and the performance, the entertainment value outside of the great music was always there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I think, again, that's a lesson for a lot of harmonica players listening, myself included, that you've got to really push that entertainment value right. There's lots of these little things you can do to entertain the crowd. And you sent me a great video of Bill playing Lollipop Mama in 1991 in San Francisco Blues Festival. And it's a fantastic example of that. The guy introduces him, and I presume it's his first song. He walks on and straight away, his presence is there right away. Obviously, he's a big guy, but not just that. He comes in with the solo and then he does the sort of tricks with lots of interaction with the band and he gets down on his knees at one point but you can really see him pushing that and there's lots of hand gestures and all that great stuff it's a really good example of that

SPEAKER_00:

It is, Neil. That's one of my favorite cuts. I'm glad you had the chance to look at that. It gives me chills every time I look at it. But that's how Bill was live. It was always exciting. You could see him two nights in a row and you'd see a totally different show the second night. And that's how he was. Nothing was scripted or planned out. It was just how he felt. And he just gave it 100% every night. And it was like, come along for the ride because I'm going to take you for a great ride. And that's what he did all the time but yeah he was a phenomenal entertainer as well as being a great musician

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and you talk about this in the book, about how he keeps the band on his toes, like they didn't know what he was going to do. He would just call a song right, or he would do extended solos, and he would ask for sort of, you know, four-bar breaks where he just played some solo harmonica, and then they'd come back in. So this kind of interaction with the band had to be watching him closely and have that spontaneous approach to his playing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it was. It was just always so fun to watch him. And talking to the guys, that interview for the book, the guys that played with him, they said they wouldn't even have time to take us sip of beer on stage, or even the tune between songs, because a lot of times Bill would end a song, and then he'd start another song right away. He'd stomp his foot, or he'd just count it off, and away you go. And a lot of times they would have to figure out, well, he's got the same harmonica, so maybe he's in the same key if he doesn't switch positions. But they were so good that they could pick it up within a few notes. They could figure out what key he was in. But that's the type of performer he was. So like you said, you had to be on your toes, you had to watch him you had to give him your rapt attention every night you know you had to be focused 100% on him the whole night

SPEAKER_03:

so he never used a set list then by the sounds of it

SPEAKER_00:

no he didn't some of the guys told me that I think that maybe he would come out and say we're going to start with Blown Like Hell or something like that but after that it's anyone's guess what he's going to do just how he was feeling and what the crowd was asking for and so it's yeah Yeah, no set list to speak of.

SPEAKER_03:

yeah no it's good to hear I mean again a lesson certainly for me you know in the bands I play in it's like say yeah you've got your set list the songs are this long here's your solo here you get 12 bars or 24 bars you know very formulaic and he's just completely get away from that and it definitely inspiring for me to think you know I've said it other times as well you know we've got to get away from this kind of everything being kind of laid out that we're going to do because it does take away a lot of spontaneity and you can again you can really see it in that video that he's doing

SPEAKER_00:

oh I agree 100% Neil and from my experience I've played bands for a number of years like you have and And, you know, first off, you craft the set list. But writing the book just gave me such an inspiration to follow what Bill's doing with his originality and the way he approaches his music on stage. I mean, I learned so much about music just by writing the book and not even picking up a harp, but just writing the book and learning how Bill's music evolved and what he did. Like you said, it's very inspiring. And that's the way that blues should be played. And a lot of the guys that played with them, said they were like Rick Holmstrom, Zach Zunis, guys like that that were young when they came in the band that they were so happy to get that tutelage under Bill because that's the way the blues should be played and they were lucky to learn right from the get-go that this is how it should be done. It was a great experience for them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I mean, it probably helps if you're touring around and playing every night because you really get to sharpen up the acts and, like you say, be able to pick up on what each of us is doing. That probably, you know, that helps a lot, right? If you want that kind of tightness in the band.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, it definitely does. And I know they never practiced and they never practiced when they went into the studio either because they were so, you know, they played those songs on the road so that he wanted that freshness and that's what he got each night. And when he came into the studio, he wanted that freshness too. He didn't want everything worked out. You're going to play 12 bars, you play 12, you play 24. He wanted everything fresh and that's why his recordings and his live performances sound so great.

SPEAKER_03:

So do you do any crazy antics from Bill in your own live shows? I know you're lying down on the floor and doing all these things yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm afraid not. I've had some people tell me I should, but I would like to. I'm afraid I'm not at that level that Bill's at. It's something that crosses my mind, but I do I do when I play I don't have a set list I like to I like to see how the crowd's responding and see how I'm feeling and switch it up so I try to take some of the lessons I learned from the book and try to incorporate them into my show the best I can

SPEAKER_03:

yeah and I'm the same right it's it takes a brave person to start doing those things on stage I try to do some of those things but it's like can you go all the way having a wireless mic's nice because you can always have a walk out in the crowd so that's always quite a crowd pleaser but yeah I'm determining on my next gig, I'm committing now on the podcast that I'm going to lie down on stage during one of my solos to copy one of Bill's and George's tricks.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that, Neil. You have to take a picture. I want to see that. Again, Bill got a lot of that from being down in those South Central clubs and seeing the players down there because Smokey Wilson and Pee Wee Crate and George Smith, all those guys, you go down there and you're not down there to listen to music. you're down there to listen to the music and see great performances and I think you know guys like Rod Piazza and Bill that really sunk in and those guys put on great shows and are great entertainers outside of being great musicians as well too

SPEAKER_03:

definitely yeah and as frustrating as it might be you know quite often people come up and talk to you about something like that rather than how magnificent your harmonica playing is you know it's those visual things often which you know captivate people isn't it

SPEAKER_00:

I think so too that's what gets people talking and you know I know with Bill, it was all real. It's not like, well, now I'm going to lay down, I'm going to do this. You could just tell that he was so immersed in the music that it was just coming out of him and that there was nothing planned or phony about it. It was all real when he was playing, and I think the crowd really appreciated that. And also the guys that played with him on good nights, they were right behind him and just captivated by what he was doing and what he was playing.

SPEAKER_03:

So you mentioned a few minutes ago about him in the studio so that's again a really interesting insight in the book that you picked out is that he would work really hard in the studio he'd be as dedicated, he would really craft the songs and he would really work on the mixing afterwards to make sure all the sound was really great and I think Alligator Records Bruce at Alligator Records gave him free reign to do all the production himself which is unusual at Alligator Records and his last albums which he did with Alligator so that was a big part of other of his studio work yeah

SPEAKER_00:

yeah it sure was neil i know that that bob knew him who played drums with bill on and off for a number of years he told me that bill said you can't be perfect on the bandstand but you can be perfect in the studio and bill also mentioned that you know when i'm gone my my recordings are going to be here forever they're going to live on so he wanted to do make him as as good as he could to you know to create that legacy and have his music live on but he he was very good in the studio and like i said they didn't practice before they came in the studio they They laid down different tracks, but he was very hands-on with the mixing. He would come in and mix and remix as much as he had to just to get it right. And Bruce at Alligator could see that Bill was very accomplished in that, and he was pretty much a hands-off approach to Bill. I mean, Bruce listened to the final mixes and made some recommendations, but pretty much it was all Bill.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so you say they went in with an improvised approach. They would play without huge... arrangements sort of beforehand so they would play and would he do like quite a lot of takes and then was he sort of taking because i think he was splicing them up a little bit and taking little bits out some takes and putting them in with others is that how that's where all these mixing and these kind of precision came from but he sort of approached it in an improvised open way when he was actually playing did he in the studio

SPEAKER_00:

right yeah yeah the the real mixing you know and the the real uh the engineering part came in after they laid down the tracks and then and then bill would bring in you know a keyboard player or a lot of times initially he would just bring in guitar or two bass and drums and then a lot of times bill would lay down the harmonica after or sometimes he'd lay it down then or he'd bring in the horns after that and the keyboard so it was kind of a piecemeal approach the way he uh he put his recordings together

SPEAKER_03:

and of course he was he was hugely into writing his own material right so he wrote a lot of lyrics and he wanted to write original blues and he saw that as a really important part of them you know the songs he was creating Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

that was a big part, Neil, that he was a great songwriter, but he was adamant about writing his own songs and not covering a Little Walter song or something like that that's been done many, many times about creating his own sound. But he was a great songwriter. A lot of the songs were based on his own life, maybe like not having money or being on the road and being lonely, or some songs were about drinking, just about his life. But he was very adamant about writing his own songs that pertain to his life, much like the old blues musicians did in the past.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, definitely

SPEAKER_03:

bringing a more modern voice to some of those themes, right? But sticking in the blues tradition of, as you said, their hard times and drinking and gambling for my bread is a good example. So yeah, he was really into writing his lyrics and working hard on those as well, yeah. So what about his singing then? Because he worked really hard on his singing initially, didn't he? So did he start out singing right from the beginning or is that something that came a little bit later?

SPEAKER_00:

He started out singing right right from the beginning and I heard some of the very early things that he did and even when I knew him back in 1983 I mean you can see you can you can see how his his voice evolved I think his first album was in 1978 and he was singing right off the bat but you can see how his voice evolved over the years and it just every album just getting a little bit better a little bit better and when he hit a stride with alligator back in 1991 I mean his voice was was fantastic and it just kept getting better and better, you know, very soulful. And it was Bill Clark when you heard him sing. I don't think he appreciated his voice as much as other people did, just because he was critical, like most musicians are of their playing. I think the old saying, you're your own worst critic, I think that definitely applied to Bill. He was always trying to get better. But I thought his voice was fantastic, and a lot of other people did too. But it really evolved over the years, and I think he really had a tremendous voice.

SPEAKER_02:

Miles away from home You know it's raining all in my

SPEAKER_03:

heart Yeah, you had that big sound in you, which really matches his harmonica playing as well, that approach that he had that kind of really filled the room, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, it did for sure. And I know that Jeanette said that he worked on his vocals a lot. He really made an effort to improve his vocals.

SPEAKER_03:

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SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, it was, Neil. And when I started doing these interviews and going back into the beginning of his life, because I didn't know about his early life, I was really pretty much taken aback and really pretty shocked by the level of drinking that had taken over his life beginning when he quit his job in 1987 and at that point he was a full time blues musician but I didn't realize the level of his alcoholism until then so until I wrote the book. It was very shocking to hear about some of those troubles that he had with that and that really followed him throughout his life. Thankfully the last part of his life that he was able to get off alcohol and live the last seven months of his life alcohol free and he was happiest in playing at his highest level and the best he's ever played so I'm glad that he was able to resolve that before he died.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah and there's a really harrowing chapter in the book which talks about when he went into hospital and you know he nearly died right from alcohol and that's what really made him stop right and he captured that really well in the book there and that troubled time for

SPEAKER_00:

him. Yeah thanks Neil yeah it got to the point and it got to the point where he almost died and he went into detox and he came out a different person. The person that everybody knew and loved the old Bill I'm just so happy that he was able to overcome the alcoholism as difficult as it was and I know he told Jeanette that it was a bigger accomplishment than anything he ever did in music that speaks volumes right there

SPEAKER_03:

I'm sure people have these substance abuse issues they're very complex but I think you talk about him being quite a shy person so in many ways do you think that it was to help him perform and to push him on with his music or was it more the fact that being a blues musician is quite a drinking culture and you know do you know what what drove him to it?

SPEAKER_00:

I think it was more the shyness I mean Bill's Bill's an imposing looking person he was an imposing looking person you know big guy with slick back hair and but one of the nicest most humble people I've ever met in my in my life but off stage he was like that on stage I think he needed that uh the liquid courage to to get up and perform in front of people because he was a shy person and you know his his looks maybe told you differently or but he was he was was a shy person i know talking to charlie musclewhite who was a good friend of bill's and charlie had the same problem he needed that alcohol to get on stage and perform and i think i think that's uh what really drove bill to drink is is because of that shyness and once he got on stage and got some liquor in him he was able to perform and to the degree that he did

SPEAKER_03:

yeah but again you talk about in the book later on when he when he was able to quit the alcohol that um he was performing better than ever right so he was able to to do those performances without the alcohol in him, he found the way to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, that's correct. And I know that he was real hesitant and nervous about performing without alcohol. And he came out that first night, I think they were on a bill with Junior Wells, and he just played great and did fantastic. And I think that proved to him that he was able to overcome that. From then on out, he didn't have a drink the rest of his life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so again, a good lesson there to people, right? You don't need the alcohol to do that. Was he still doing the same things? Was he still as spontaneous and still doing the things to entertain the crowd? in those last few months?

SPEAKER_00:

He sure was. I remember I saw him two months before he died. He came up to Minnesota and that's the best I'd ever heard him play. He was doing great stage show and he was playing fantastic and I had seen him many, many, many times over the years and that's the best time I had ever seen him play. I know Mark Hummel was on tour a week behind him going to the same places and he said the same thing that people were just giving rave reviews about Bill's playing. I think everybody agreed that Bill is playing as well as he ever played if not better.

SPEAKER_03:

It's amazing again to read in the book about how you talk about his wife Jeanette and what a support she was for him. First of all when he quit his day job as a machinist I think was it in 1987 so he could go full time to music so then Jeanette was working full time they had two young children right so she had to bring the money in and because he was drinking she would drive him to the club or would she go and pick him up as well in the sort of late at night and so she was really instrumental in allowing Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

she sure was, Neil. She went through a lot with Bill. They had such great love for each other, and she was the backbone of their marriage for sure. And Bill was a great family man, and for sure the drinking was out of control. He was a functioning alcoholic, but things weren't perfect. But Jeanette was really the backbone of the family, and she used to take the van to get oil changes, get gas, drive them to the club and back when they were in town. town have to set the alarm clock for two o'clock in the morning to go pick him up bill basically didn't drive because he knew that he he couldn't he started drinking early in the morning and drank throughout the day so he he knew enough not to not to drive but she was really the the force behind their marriage at that time

SPEAKER_03:

yeah definitely and he wrote some songs there's a song he wrote with a tear in my eye which is an ode to jeanette and the family and being from away from home a lot so obviously those themes came out in his music

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

That's what I think about you, baby. Here's what I got to say. I feel like I've gone crazy. We're so, so far apart.

SPEAKER_00:

the other thing with drinking too is that when he was on the road he was real lonely and I think that probably escalated the drinking as well too but yeah he was very much a family man when he was on the road it was kind of tore him apart but he knew that he had to do that to build his career and to make his career happen

SPEAKER_03:

yeah and there's another song it's been a long time which you know is also about you know Jeanette and his family missing his family was away touring so yeah it's definitely something which hit him hard

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

Just to give my poor heart in

SPEAKER_00:

What's very unfortunate, Neil, the last part of his life that he was getting to the point where he was pretty successful and he was going to cut back his touring and start giving harmonica lessons from his home. Jeanette had lined up a bunch of students that he was going to give harmonica lessons to. And I think Bill was kind of at the point where he was popular enough that he could have not as toured as much and done okay and stayed at home. And that's exactly what he wanted to do, to stay at home and be closer to his family and not do those grueling road trips that he had been doing for for many years so i think his life was finally finally coming to where he wanted it to be. And fortunately, it ended too soon. It

SPEAKER_03:

certainly did, yeah. So you mentioned his tours there. So he did his first tour nationally in the U.S. in 1983 with George Smith. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00:

That's correct. He was in between jobs as a machinist. And he had the opportunity to go out with George Smith. And it was really a great band that they had with them. Philip Walker on guitar, J.D. Nicholson on piano. And that's where I first met Bill. But they went out, I think they were out for about two or three months on the tour. So that's the first time Bill had been out on tour. and

SPEAKER_03:

so he was up playing with George on stage two harmonicas

SPEAKER_00:

right yep I remember seeing that and unfortunately George George was not feeling great and he actually I saw I saw Bill and George in May of 1983 and George died that year in October so George's health was failing but it was just great seeing both of them perform at the same time they did a little bit a little bit on stage together but Bill had part of the show then George would come up for his part of the show Philip Walker had a little piece of the show so A great time to see those guys.

SPEAKER_03:

And he would back George, wouldn't he, with his band The Night Owls earlier on? They did a couple of songs, one of them called Teardrops Is Falling, which was nominated for a WC Handy Award in 1980.

SPEAKER_01:

Falling down like snow Falling down like snow

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, when they were around L.A., at that time, Bill had his band, the Night Owls. They would back George. A lot of times, Bill would ask George to share the gig with him, and Bill would give George half of his pay, which was pretty meager, but he just thought, I can't believe that I have the opportunity to play with George, and he's available, and he wants to play with me. So it was a great experience for Bill to have George on those gigs, but they did quite a few local gigs around L.A. from about 1977 to 1983. And so he

SPEAKER_03:

He quit his day job at age 36 to go full-time. He used this in 1987. Then he started touring nationally in the U.S. and then went across to Europe in 1988. So, yeah, doing lots of touring then. Do you know how he enjoyed that?

SPEAKER_00:

I think initially he enjoyed that, and I think some of those trips were really grueling. I know Bob Newham, the drummer, talks about one tour where they crisscrossed the U.S. twice in one tour. They put on 13,000 miles in a two-month period. They were pretty grueling. A lot of times the van, the speedometer didn't work, or the radiator quit on them, or they had bad tires, or they didn't have air conditioning. They're driving in the summer, and you have five guys in a van. So they were tough. They really earned their stripes by getting out there and touring like that, but it wasn't all glamour by any means.

SPEAKER_03:

no yeah you got some interesting stories in the book about that like you said the van breaking down and you know the having to drive you know the scheduling of the gigs wasn't great so they would drive hundreds of miles in one direction then have to go back this you know the same way the opposite way and then uh the next night and then back to where they came from more or less in the next night so yeah some really grueling trips and uh showing what the life on the road was like is captured well in the book as well

SPEAKER_00:

you can imagine i mean going back then where you don't have cell phones you don't have gps i mean this sounds like such a tough lifestyle and some of the guys that Bill had with him were younger guys like Zach Zunis, Rick Holmstrom, Henry Carvajal and guys like that in their 20s but Bill was mid to late 30s, early 40s so with a family so it was a little bit different perspective that bill had than those guys where they maybe could deal with a little bit better but i mean just a very difficult lifestyle for anybody

SPEAKER_03:

and then in 89 he you know he signed up with alligator for the four albums he did with them and he released the the album blowing like hell which um and we talked about in the first interview but yeah fantastic first album with alligator and um yeah some some great songs on there again the first album i'd heard with bill

SPEAKER_00:

that's a great album that's one of my favorites of all time too they they actually recorded that album before he signed with Alligator. He wanted to put together a really great album to present to Bruce Iglauer because at that time blues was really booming throughout the U.S. and Bruce had a lot of artists on his label and a lot of people were clamoring to get on his label and Bill recorded that and then presented that to Bruce with the help of Dick Sherman. So he recorded that before he signed with Alligator but Alligator did release that under their title. That started his career of four albums on Alligator but that That's one of the best, I agree. That's just a fantastic album. Blowing Like Hell is a great song, kind of like Bill's anthem. And John Marks told me that on the studio cut, it's four minutes, but he said if we did it live, sometimes it'd be 20 minutes long. So I guess it just depends how Bill's feeling, but it's a remarkable album.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and of course, the book is called Blowing Like Hell, the William Clarke story. So yeah, you've taken that title for

SPEAKER_00:

the book. Yeah, that's a fitting title for the book, just because every time you go out and see Bill, Bill, it's like, put on your seatbelt and let's go along for the ride. Bill's always going to give it 100% and just the explosiveness and the ferocity of his attack. And I don't think there's anybody else that could grab that title like he could.

SPEAKER_03:

There's some other great songs I love off that album. Greasy Gravy. I love that one. It's... kind of melodic uh one a bit more laid-back which is uh like you say he's so energetic that's a really nice laid-back one and cash money is a sort of similar sort of laid-back one to be really beautiful songs yeah did he write that album to try and get onto alligator or did it just did the alligator chance just come up after the album had been recorded

SPEAKER_00:

He was trying to get on a big label, and Alligator was one that he had his sights on. There was a lot of great labels at that time, Blind Pig and Rounder, but Alligator was the label to get on if you possibly could. And so Bill had his sights on Alligator, and he would literally call Bruce Siglauer two times a day, and Bruce said, I like people that are aggressive. It's kind of amazing because Bill's a pretty shy, humble guy, so for him to do that... took a lot of courage because but he just wanted it so bad so he recorded that album and then he just you know asked Bruce to listen to it to listen to it and he got a copy to Dick Sherman who was a good friend of Bruce's and Dick was instrumental in helping helping Bill's career and Dick got it into Bruce's hand and said hey Bruce just do me a favor give this a listen and when Bruce heard it he was just sold he said this is this is it

SPEAKER_03:

yeah and the Blues Blast magazine called it the best blues harp album of the last 20 years as well so a fitting praise for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Bruce told me that one of his staff said that was the best harp album that they had ever heard so I think it got really some great praise and I think it put Bill's name out in the forefront, it's like who is this guy, how come we haven't heard of him before and certainly catapulted him onto the national scene, the worldwide scene actually with that release.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah and he did a tour on the back of that didn't he and he got nominated for some awards and he won the best instrumentalist, harmonica, and then the song Must Be Jelly won the best song of that year, the WC Handy Awards, so yeah, definitely got a lot of success on the back of the album, well deserved. And then he recorded three more albums with Alligator, so I think, as you said, he's playing Evolved, and you think those albums with Alligator are his best work?

SPEAKER_00:

I think so, and I kind of hesitate because I feel they are, but a lot of his other, you know, he did like the Can't You Hear Me Calling, and a lot of his other albums I really, really like, but I think in my opinion those were his best and i think the reason why is because his voice was evolving his plane was evolving he was writing his own songs and also i think most of all he was able to go into the studio and keep remixing and remixing because now he finally had the the funds available thanks to alligator records to get that extra studio time to make them just like he wanted to make them so i i honestly can't pick my favorite because i like them all i should say i love love them all and I listened to him so many times writing the book that every time I listen to him I just appreciate him more and more and they sound as fresh today as they did back then he just left a great legacy for fans to enjoy forever I

SPEAKER_03:

think probably as much as I love Blowing Like Hell I really love Groovetime as well which is the second to last album he did with Alligator so yeah I think there's some great great songs in there Daddy Pinocchio which is the first song has got this great kind of wah effect that he does on the diatonic Thank you. He had some really, I think I was reading from the book, he had 18 really top-notch L.A. musicians playing with him on that album.

SPEAKER_00:

He did, and one thing the book did that I'm really happy about is it kind of brought some light to the L.A. blues scene. There are just so many great musicians that came out of that scene. You know, the Hollywood Fats Band, Rod Piazza, Junior Watson, Fred Kaplan, on and on and on. James Harmon. It brought a little bit of light to the breath of the great musicians out there. You had the South Central Black Clubs. You had guys like Pee Wee Crate and Phillip Walker. J.D. Nicholson and George Smith and Smokey Wilson and Johnny Dyer. And you have all these great younger guys that came up under those guys. So I think Bill had a lot of great musicians to pick from and he certainly made good use of the talent that was available to him.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I think, you know, talking about the L.A. scene against, you know, versus the Chicago scene, I think the, again, picking up from the book is, you know, it was more sort of swing bass, wasn't it? A little bit more jazz influence and that was the difference with the, you know, the L.A. scene compared to Chicago.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you could say that for sure. Out of the Chicago scene, a lot of those guys came from Mississippi and great players. The LA maybe had T-Bone Walker coming from Texas and Roy Brown, guys like that. And so yeah, a little bit more swinging sound, Pee Wee Crate and guys like that. So a little bit more swinging jump style blues out on the LA scene, the West Coast scene. But all those guys were well versed in Chicago blues too. So you had the best of both worlds. It was a great combination that evolved out on the West Coast.

SPEAKER_03:

And then he's The final album was The Hard Way, and there's a song on there called Blues Is Killing Me, which is maybe, you know, he foresaw what was going to happen to him.

SPEAKER_00:

That's what I always think, because I know that it wasn't his original song, but he inserted lyrics about himself in there. I think when he recorded that, that was before he got sober, so I think that maybe there was some kind of premonition there that he saw that we didn't pick up on, but I often think about that.

UNKNOWN:

When we're not done

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_03:

then, quite sadly, he died later that year from a bleeding ulcer. It was a sort of complication of his health issues. And then his funeral was attended by hundreds. You talk about his funeral in the book. Again, very touching. You talk about lots of people playing his music from boomboxes and chorus stereos and lots of people there. So were you able to attend yourself?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was. And I was a pallbearer for Bill. And it was a very touching ceremony. And when someone dies like that at the peak of their career and they're so young, he was 45 at the time, it's heartbreaking. But there was a lot of lot of love and emotion in there and yeah it just still still makes me sad today think to think about it but it was you can just see all the people that really cared a lot about bill and it was overflowing crowd and like you said the music was playing from boom boxes and they were just celebrating someone's life that they loved as a person and a musician

SPEAKER_03:

did he have his an open casket there where he was in with his shades and he had a chromatic in his top pocket

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, he did. It was an open casket he had on his sunglasses, and he had a herring harmonica sticking out of his left vest pocket. I asked Jeanette about that, and she said that it's a Brazilian harmonica, because Bill usually played Hohner chromatics for the most part, and that was given to Bill, and she did that kind of as a symbol that Bill really loved the people of Brazil when he went over there, and he was going to take Jeanette over there on his next tour. That never happened, unfortunately, but but that was more of a symbolic gesture. for the people of Brazil that he had that chromatic in his left vest pocket.

SPEAKER_03:

George Smith's widow sang in the choir in the funeral.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yep, she did. Yep, Darlene Smith. And it was a very beautiful ceremony. And Jeanette had a copy on tape that I listened to several times for my book. And many, many people were there, many musicians and many industry people like Bruce Siglauer and people like that were there. So it was very well attended and a lot of laughs, but a lot of tears too. So

SPEAKER_03:

it was... from Alligator did a eulogy as well. Did

SPEAKER_00:

he? He did. Bruce was just a great friend to Bill and Jeanette. And I think by Bill getting on Alligator just really cemented his career. Like we talked about, he was able to produce those great albums that he otherwise probably wouldn't have been able to do just because of the finances. But yeah, Bruce was instrumental in Bill's career, as was Dick Sherman as far as industry people.

SPEAKER_03:

And then the last section of the book, well, one of the last sections of the book is a legacy section towards Bill. and some of the great US players talking about Bill's legacy and where he would have taken his music. So we got Charlie Musselwhite there saying he would continue into a sort of jazz-blues fusion and Jason Ritchie saying he played really unique licks and Ronnie Shelley saying he was the strongest articulate player, ferocious attack, creative, passionate. David Barrett saying creative, mastery, fresh, still relevant. So yeah, lots of really great things people have said about him. So what do you think his legacy was and where would he have taken his music next

SPEAKER_00:

I think Bill was just... doing this book and just knowing him as a person, just the originality and the creativity, the musicianship, the hard work. No one tops him in my book. I think he's one of the greatest players of all time. And he's such a humble player that he, I don't know if he'd be frowning if I said that, but I totally agree that he was just one of the greatest players of all time. And I think, like Barry Levinson said and some of the other musicians, that he would have maybe gone a little bit towards more of the soul jazz, but he certainly would have been well steeped in the blues. He never lost that blues feeling. And I think Charlie Musselwhite said that as well too. So I always think about where his music would be today, but I think it'd still be really based and steeped in blues music, but he'd be doing maybe a little bit more into the soul jazz vein of the blues as well.

SPEAKER_03:

So a tough question, I'm sure, but if you could pick out a favorite song of Bill's of yours, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00:

Good question, Neil. There's so many that I love, but I would say either I don't know if I can pick out one. There's so many, there's so many I like, but those, those are two that I really liked that he did. And the boss, I don't know. I, that's a tough question.

SPEAKER_03:

You're allowed three. That's good. Three.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Obviously again, talking about Jeanette, uh, his wife, you know, she's really worked to keep his memory alive. As you say, um, she released some albums after he died, didn't she? She was able to find some, you know, some, some recordings came up from, she also has a Facebook page, um, William Clarke remembered as well, where people can join and see, keeping his memory live on there too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, she did, Neal. She has the William Clark Remembered websites on Facebook. And then she did release some recordings after he died, some older ones. They're not up to par like the Alligator releases were. Those are much more professionally mixed and recorded. But there's some great early stuff. You can really see how Bill evolved over the years and how he was moving his music forward, how original and creative he was, and just how his voice got better, how his playing got better, his songwriting got better, his vocals got better so it's it's really fun just to listen to some of that early stuff and compare it to the some of the latter latter day stuff so and before i forget that the i want to mention that the the one that live in germany is really a great one it lets you hear for the for the folks that haven't heard bill play live kind of give you a taste what he did live so it's a that's a good one and in bare records is going to release um expanded version of that live in germany i think this spring so be on the lookout for that i think that's going to be a really good see So

SPEAKER_03:

great. So yeah, again, congratulations so much on getting the book done and getting it out there. Any plans to write any more books?

SPEAKER_00:

I guess I'm just taking a break right now. I'm just kind of focusing a little bit more. I'm a part-time musician, so playing a little bit of music these days, just taking a little break. But I don't know if I would ever delve into it, but I hope someday someone writes a book on the L.A. blues scene or the West Coast blues scene around the time that Bill was active out there because there's so many great musicians came out of that scene and a lot of the originators were down in South Central playing great music. It's just really a vibrant, great scene that I was lucky to get a little taste of. So I hope, if I don't do it, I hope someone at some point does a book on that West Coast scene of that era, the 1960s through 1980s, early 90s.

SPEAKER_03:

So thanks so much for joining me again today, Paul Barry, and again, congratulations on the book.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks so much, Neil, and thanks for all you do for us, our harmonica players. We really appreciate Thanks.

SPEAKER_03:

Once again, thanks to Zydle for sponsoring the podcast. Be sure to check out their great range of harmonicas and products at www.zydle1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zydle Harmonicas. Thanks to Paul for joining me today. I highly recommend you read his book, Blowing Like Hell, The William Clarke Story, while of course listening to all Bill's albums. And also thanks to Chris DiPino for the donation to the podcast. There's only one song to play out with today, Bill's signature tune. blowing like hell.