Sonny Terry retrospective with Paul Lamb, Joe Filisko and Adam Sikora

Paul Lamb, Joe Filisko and Adam Sikora join me on episode 125, for a retrospective on one of the legends of the diatonic harmonica, Sonny Terry, whose real name was Saunders Terrell.
Sonny was born in 1911 (or 1912), in Greensboro, Georgia (or it could have been North Carolina). Growing up on a farm in a rural community, Sonny was left blind by two accidents in his youth. Unable to work on the farm he turned to music, with his harmonica playing father giving him his early lessons.
Sonny first rose to prominence playing with Blind Boy Fuller, and then made a splash by performing at Carnegie Hall in 1938 as part of the ‘From Spirituals To Swing’ concert.
A few years later he formed probably the most famous blues duo ever, with Brownie McGhee. Sonny and Brownie made their name in the New York Folk scene and went on to play together for forty years, travelling the world, with many festival appearances, on Broadway, in movies and countless albums together. Sonny also played solo and with many other notable musicians besides Brownie, including an album with Johnny Winter towards the end of his life.
We look into Sonny’s style of playing and talk about how his rhythmical work is essential study in getting your own harmonica chops together.

Links:
Sonny Terry Estate items for sale:
https://bluemoonharmonicas.com/collections/sonny-terry-estate-llc

Paul Lamb: http://paullamb.com/

Joe Filisko: https://www.filiskostore.com/

Adam Sikora: https://jukejointsmokers.com/

http://www.the-archivist.co.uk/rare-early-blues-harp-recordings-by-singers-and-sidemen-introduced-by-joe-filisko/


Videos:
American Folk Blues Festival, Hootin’ The Blues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtO7cctW1uI

Sonny and Woody Guthrie postage stamps playing Lost John:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ldxb0iGHc

Sonny and Brownie in one of their last concerts, 1980:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzDNhA5irc8

Sonny and Brownie playing on The Jerk, Steve Martin movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDgOUoDTsY


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
--------------------------------
Blue Moon Harmonicas: https://bluemoonharmonicas.com

Chapters

• 1:58 Paul Lamb, Adam Sakori and Joe Filisko join me on the 125th episode to discuss Sonny Terry
• 2:19 Paul Lamb was the guest on the very first episode, in April 2020, and he met Sonny Terry and did some playing with him
• 3:08 Joe Filisko was on episode six of the podcast. Joe is a specialist in early styles of harmonica
• 4:07 Adam Sakori is originally from Poland, growing up in Berlin
• 4:49 Adam plays with the Juke Joint Smokers
• 5:05 Sonny was born on October 24th, 1911. Although there is some doubt about the date
• 5:27 Sonny was probably born in Greensboro, Georgia, although there are reports that he was born in North Carolina
• 6:04 What is clear is that Sonny grew up on a farm
• 6:19 Was reported to be from a family of ten children
• 6:43 Sonny had two separate accidents as child, losing sight in one eye age 11, and sight in the second eye age 16
• 7:39 Had partial sight in one eye
• 9:00 Losing his sight meant he couldn’t work on the farm so turned to music
• 9:17 May have first picked up his father’s harmonica age five, although reported that he started playing properly age eight
• 10:13 His harmonica playing father probably gave him his first instruction on how to play
• 10:23 Sonny didn’t hear blues until he was eighteen years old and learnt folk music, reels and breakdowns on the harmonica
• 11:25 Started playing harmonica on the farm, and then out with string bands and medicine shows age 18 and may have learnt some harmonica from Little John
• 11:55 Probably heard first blues either on the radio or musicians busking on the street
• 12:31 Early influences included Deford Bailey and Henry Whitter
• 13:14 Henry Whitter was the first to record the fox chase and Sonny’s version probably drew from it heavily
• 14:32 Adam thinks Sonny made have also been influenced by John Lee Williamson, who released his first recording six months before Sonny
• 15:29 John Webb was another player to release early recordings
• 15:50 Sonny brought a different style of playing in the 1930s, playing in a Piedmont style
• 16:22 Paul thinks Sonny’s harmonica heroes were Noah Lewis, Peg Leg Sam and Deford Bailey
• 17:04 Sonny started performing with Blind Boy Fuller in the early 1930s, recording their first track together in 1937
• 18:25 Sonny developed his whooping and hollering to be heard when he was busking on the street
• 18:49 Sonny also worked with other blind blues musicians
• 19:11 Blind Boy Fuller was a big recording star at the time Sonny joined him, which helped Sonny’s career
• 19:23 Sonny had a big break when he was invited to play at the ‘From Spirituals To Swing’ concert at Carnegie Hall in 1938, bringing black music to a white audience
• 20:13 Blind Boy Fuller was supposed to be playing in the 1938 Carnegie Hall concert, but was (possibly) arrested and Sonny took his place
• 21:15 Robert Johnson was originally lined-up for the Carnegie Hall concert, but he couldn’t make it
• 21:41 Two recordings of Sonny playing the From Spirituals To Swing concert are available
• 22:36 Carnegie Hall concert allowed Sonny to break into the New York folk scene and Sonny lived in New York for the rest of his life
• 22:54 Sonny played in the Piedmont style and Paul was influenced by Sonny playing this style, rather than Chicago blues players
• 24:22 Partnership with Brownie McGhee started when they first met in 1939 and started playing as a duo in 1940
• 24:57 Brownie had polio when young and as a result walked with a limp
• 25:57 Sonny replaced Jordan Webb as the harmonica player with Brownie, although both Sonny and Jordan appeared on a small number of recordings together
• 26:24 Sonny and Brownie became a permanent duo from 1942 and went on to play together for almost another forty years
• 26:58 Sonny and Brownie became staples on the New York folk scene
• 27:42 The New York folk scene included political protest, with Larry Adler also involved
• 28:26 Sonny and Brownie did some protest songs as part of the Folk movement, with Brownie a good songwriter
• 29:15 Recording of Lost John with with Woody Guthrie
• 29:40 The Folk scene propelled Sonny and Brownie to fame
• 30:19 Sonny and Brownie used to keep it quite loose and play off each other, not too rehearsed
• 31:08 Sonny performed a song in a Broadway show, Finian’s Rainbow, from 1947-48, and the story of Sonny agreeing to play it the same way every night
• 32:34 Sonny and Brownie performed in Cat On A Hot Tin Roof in the 1950s
• 32:44 1952 album: Sonny Terry Harmonica and Vocal solos
• 33:20 Sonny Terry and His Washboard Band is one of Adam’s favourite albums and Adam plans to create a band with himself, washboard, single string bass and bones
• 34:18 Toured around the world with Brownie
• 34:45 1958 album Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee Sing which Paul studied deeply
• 36:16 Sonny and Brownie also record an album with Big Bill Broonzy
• 36:58 Sonny played a concert with Pete Seeger at Carnegie Hall in 1958, further illustrating Sonny’s connection into the Folk scene
• 38:04 In 1958 Sonny and Brownie toured the UK with the Chris Barber Jazz band, which exposed them to a British audience laying the bedrock for the British Blues boom of the 1960s
• 39:09 Sonny and Brownie were popular with audiences because they were entertaining
• 39:48 Sonny and Brownie took part in the American Folk and Blues festivals in Europe
• 41:21 Sonny and Brownie were regulars on the festival circuit, including playing at the first Newport Folk Festival in 1959
• 41:58 Sonny had the ability to play unaccompanied, which not many other harmonica players can
• 42:51 Sonny and Brownie performed in the Broadway production of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof and they were at their pinnacle through the 1950s and 60s
• 44:14 Some great albums released through the 1960s, including Sonny’s Story
• 44:47 Recorded an album with Lightning Hopkins
• 45:05 Sonny Is King is another great album from the 1960s, where he does his ‘I Want My Mama’ talking harmonica ‘trick’ and earlier recordings of this from other players
• 47:05 Sonny and Brownie sometimes played as part of a full band together, which they may have done at the request of the record company
• 48:16 Drinkin’ In The Blues is an example of the tension that could exist on stage between Sonny and Brownie
• 50:51 Paul tells of times he saw tension between Sonny and Brownie
• 51:17 Paul addresses the accusation that Sonny played the same licks a lot of the time as that was his style, and all the early players were the same, and it brought them success
• 52:28 Little Walter broke the mould by not playing the same stock licks
• 53:16 The breakdown in the relationship between Sonny and Brownie led to them playing less together in the mid-1970s and their last concert together may have been in 1981
• 55:00 Guitarist Johnny Winter recorded an album with Sonny in 1984, with Johnny wanting to bring some exposure back on Sonny
• 55:50 Paul says Johnny Winter wanted to put a Chicago style backing behind Sonny, something which Brownie never did
• 57:22 Sonny Terry died on March 11, 1986, age 74, in Queens, New York
• 57:39 Sonny recorded in the film Crossroads, performing with Ry Cooder, and Paul has a picture of Sonny playing with Ry Cooder shortly before Sonny died
• 58:22 Sonny was inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame in 1986 (the year he died)
• 58:27 In 1998 Sonny was featured on a US postage stamp, meaning he had more licks than any other harmonica player!
• 59:18 Sonny’s vocals, and how the whooping, hollering and falsetto probably came from his street performing when young
• 1:01:41 Although many people think Brownie had the better voice, Paul thinks Sonny had a beautiful, honest sounding voice
• 1:02:39 Sonny and Brownie released a huge amount of albums, and Chris Smith published a complete discography in 1999 entitled “That’s The Stuff - The recordings of Sonny Terry, Brownie McGhee, Sticks McGhee and JC Burris”
• 1:03:46 Sonny’s style of harmonica is based on a wide array of rhythmical playing and his ability to play unaccompanied
• 1:05:33 Adam’s admires Sonny’s rhythm, tone, including the tone of his chords
• 1:06:00 Joe challenges every harmonica player to learn a chordal groove in Sonny’s style
• 1:07:08 Various movie appearances with Sonny playing harmonica, include: The Jerk with Steve Martin, The Colour Purple, The Book of Numbers, and more
• 1:07:38 In 1982 Sonny and Brownie both received a National Heritage Fellowship awarded by National Endowment for the Arts
• 1:08:01 Adam’s favourite song is Sonny’s Squall from the Midnight Special album
• 1:08:40 Joe picks out three of his favourite Sonny songs, including Lost John with Woody Guthrie
• 1:11:28 Some of Paul’s favourite songs are Down By The Riverside and Blowin’ The Fuses
• 1:12:24 Sonny mainly played Hohner Marine Bands and Golden Melodies
• 1:12:57 Unlikely Sonny had his harmonicas customised but his bottom octave chord sounded in tune on the Golden Melodies, which may suggest otherwise
• 1:14:22 Sonny could just make a stock harmonica work to how he wanted it to sound
• 1:15:11 Sonny liked the low range of standard diatonic harmonicas, mainly playing on keys A, Bb, B and C
• 1:16:34 The lower range of harmonicas used was probably because they work well for rhythmical playing, and also for his falsetto singing range
• 1:17:04 Didn’t play any chromatic harmonica, although was photographed with one in a photoshoot, probably because you can see them in photos
• 1:17:23 Sonny played some songs in straight harp with Brownie
• 1:18:01 Embouchre, thought to be a pucker player but Joe hears a lot of tongue blocking, played in a unique way
• 1:18:21 Paul demonstrates some embouchre techniques he used
• 1:18:53 Joe talks about Sonny’s use of ‘tongue shakes’
• 1:19:46 Mainly used tongue blocking as part of his rhythm playing
• 1:20:20 Mainly played through a vocal mic, but started cupping the mic later in career as Brownie started using an amp
• 1:20:42 Did some recordings through an amp but he played the same as his acoustic style, so didn’t sound much different
• 1:21:31 Sonny did play through an amplifier on a few tracks
• 1:22:45 Sonny didn’t use effects pedals but Joe thinks he was the best player at summoning his own effects straight out of the harmonica
• 1:23:18 Made great use of hand effects
• 1:24:36 Sonny’s influence on Adam
• 1:25:04 Paul Lamb was also an inspiration to Adam (and me!)
• 1:25:47 Sonny’s influence on Paul and he considers Sonny to be the greatest
• 1:26:45 Joe pays credit to Adam and Paul’s harmonica contributions
• 1:27:05 Joe’s final words on Sonny and his influence and Joe also thinks Sonny was the greatest diatonic player ever
• 1:27:44 Joe advocates putting the time in to work on Sonny’s rhythm playing
• 1:30:03 Paul says working on Sonny's groove will open the door in your playing

Transcript

SPEAKER_08: 0:00

Paul Lamb, Joe Felisco and Adam Sikori join me on episode 125 for a retrospective on one of the legends of the diatonic harmonica, Sonny Terry, whose real name was Saunders Terrell. Sonny was born in 1911 or 1912 in Greensboro, Georgia, or it could have been North Carolina. Growing up in a farm in a rural community, Sonny was left blind by two accidents in his youth. Unable to work on the farm, he turned to music, with his harmonica-playing father giving him his early lessons. Sonny first rose to prominence playing with Blind Boy Fuller, and then made a splash by performing at Carnegie Hall in 1938 as part of the From Spirituals to Swing concert. A few years later, he formed probably the most famous blues duo ever with Brownie McGee. Sonny and Brownie made their name in the New York folk scene and went on to play together for 40 years, travelling the world with many festival appearances, on Broadway, in movies and countless albums together. Sonny also played solo and with many other notable musicians besides Brownie, including an album with Johnny Winter towards the end of his life. We look into Sonny's style of playing and talk about how his rhythmical work is essential study in getting your own harmonica chops together. This podcast is sponsored by Seidel Harmonicas. Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas.

SPEAKER_06: 1:34

Woo! Woo! Woo! Told you, sun is coming. Woo!

UNKNOWN: 1:48

Woo!

SPEAKER_06: 1:49

Hello,

SPEAKER_08: 1:58

Joe Felisco, Paul Lamb and Adam Sikori and welcome to the 125th podcast episode which is a retrospective about Sonny Terry. I'm

SPEAKER_07: 2:06

delighted

SPEAKER_08: 2:06

to be here.

SPEAKER_03: 2:07

Hello, I'm Paul Lamb. Hello,

SPEAKER_08: 2:11

I'm Adam Sikora. And of course, when we talked about it in the interview I did with you, you did meet Sonny, didn't you? And did you do some playing with him?

SPEAKER_03: 2:59

Yes, that was, I would say, in the 70s. I met up with Sonny. The whole thing goes on after that. The legend lives on.

SPEAKER_08: 3:08

So Joe Felisco is also with us. So Joe was on, I think, the sixth episode. So again, a very early one. I think the second player from the US I had on. Joe's also been a great friend to the podcast and has helped me in times hooking up with people and providing information. So thanks so much for that, Joe. So Joe, you're definitely renowned as a scholar of early harmonica styles. And so Sonny Terry would fit into that as we'll get into, yeah?

SPEAKER_07: 3:32

Yes, I am very fascinated with early styles techniques, players, approaches to playing, and have committed a lot of time to the study of it, and fortunately I've not yet had to commit myself.

UNKNOWN: 0:00

...

SPEAKER_08: 4:06

We also have Adam Sikori, who's the first time on the podcast. So Adam, you're originally from Poland and you're now based in Berlin, in Germany,

SPEAKER_05: 4:13

yep? Yes, yes. I actually grew up in Germany, in Berlin.

SPEAKER_08: 4:19

So you're someone who also plays some Sonny Terry style harmonica?

UNKNOWN: 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 4:38

Watch your connection with Sonny Terry.

SPEAKER_05: 4:39

Actually, Sonny was the first guy which I heard on harmonica, and he inspired me a lot. I always wanted to play like Sonny. I was practicing a lot of Sonny Terry stuff.

SPEAKER_08: 4:49

So you play with an outfit called the Duke Joint Smokers. They're in Berlin, yeah, and lots of acoustic style.

SPEAKER_05: 4:56

With Gigi De Chico, he's from Italy.

SPEAKER_08: 4:58

Great to have you on, Adam. Thanks for joining and adding your expertise.

SPEAKER_05: 5:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08: 5:02

We'll start off talking about Sonny Terry's early life. So Sonny Terry was born on October the 24th, 1911, we think. I mean there's a little bit of dispute about that but it does seem to be pretty clear that that was his birthday I've seen that he was potentially born in 1912 so any takers on it not being October the 24th 1911 I think that's when he was

SPEAKER_03: 5:23

born 1911 in North Carolina I

SPEAKER_08: 5:27

think the location he was actually born in Greensboro Georgia but there has been talk about it being North Carolina but I do understand that from things I've researched that it is Greensboro Georgia I think Joe that's something that you're pretty confident as well as well yet

SPEAKER_07: 5:42

I believe I've heard both places

SPEAKER_08: 5:45

so yeah so so there's some you know differing reports about where he is born you know we've heard North Carolina we've heard Greensboro Georgia I think the census record from what I've seen does show the place in Greensboro Georgia but I guess that was that's what it was like back then right the records weren't what they are these days

SPEAKER_07: 6:03

I think most importantly it's agreed that he grew up on a farm and

SPEAKER_08: 6:09

So yeah, exactly. He grew up on a farm. So let's get into that early life because it had a really big impact on his career. So he grew up on a farm, as you're saying, in a small farming community, apparently around one of 10 children, I think. So did he have nine brothers and sisters do we know of?

SPEAKER_03: 6:25

I'm not sure if he had a big family. I mean, I knew his father was called Ruben and Sonny just had the mishaps, which he did have. You know, he got blind when he was a young boy, you

SPEAKER_08: 6:42

know, and so... He actually had two accidents, didn't he? So he actually lost sight in one eye and then a second accident to lose the sight in the second eye. I think the first accident was when he was age 11 and then the second accident when he was age 16. some pretty bad luck there.

SPEAKER_06: 6:58

So apparently

SPEAKER_08: 7:16

the first one I've read that he lost the sight in his first eye when he was beating out the rhythm with a stick which broke and hit him in the eye so he was playing music to Losing the first one and then the second one is he was just playing with a friend and he got hit in the eye with a sort of piece of iron and that's how he lost the second eye and he was registered blind right so he was you know officially blind I think he had very very partial sight in one eye

SPEAKER_03: 7:42

There, I met Sonny, and he told me about different things. They're all stories about how he lost his sight and how it happened, or whatever it was, you know. He could see a little bit. There was a little bit of partial thing in the eye that he could not see. And he never said, to me, he said he was handicapped, but he said he could get on with life, you know, and

SPEAKER_08: 8:09

that was nice. Did he sort of have to always have an escort with him to you know to help him around especially when he was going out on tour and everything obviously no

SPEAKER_03: 8:18

not really i mean sonny did did his things you know i mean when he was in harlem and when he was with brownie the two of them looked after each other i think sonny um in the early days he had to work for the blind people he worked for some of these um places where he would work for the blind people and do this i'm talking about the 30s or late 20s or 30s or something like that and he would work for them and then when he couldn't find any work music took his thing you know so after that he just went out and did his thing you know

SPEAKER_08: 8:59

so yeah so as you're saying he was blind so I think he grew up on a farm as you as you said Joe earlier on so it meant he couldn't work on the farm so that meant he sort of turned to music and then you know music became his outlet right so that was a obviously a critical thing and I think he was starting reputed again different stories about the age he started playing from what I've read he he sort of picked up his father his father played harmonica right Ruben as you say Paul so he picked up his harmonica age five and started messing around around. But then there's other stories that he maybe started playing at age eight. Have we got any more reliable information about what age he started?

SPEAKER_07: 9:38

I think I got the information that I gathered from that Oak Publications instruction book. I think there was a bio in there that I got that stuff from, and that seems like it's probably more reliable because it came directly from Sonny himself and his own recollections, although it's also easy to imagine that he could have confused some things, too. But it's clear that he started playing at a young age.

SPEAKER_08: 10:13

So his father did teach him initially. I mean, do we know how central was that? Did his father teach him a lot or was it just a few pointers? I

SPEAKER_07: 10:23

just recall a very strong statement that Sonny said that he basically didn't even hear blues until he was about 18 years old. So he was probably hearing folk music music and reels and breakdowns old-timey stuff that his father was playing I seem to recall that that was what he was playing initially when he picked it up

SPEAKER_08: 10:52

yeah and I think that's again a critical thing because as we'll get on to the early part of his career he very much got into the folk scene so he did start really as a folk harmonica player as you're saying there Joe he didn't hear blues until he was age 18. So, you know, that kind of, you know, the folk side of things was really crucial and must have obviously influenced his playing

SPEAKER_06: 11:12

a lot.

SPEAKER_08: 11:23

Okay, so he started, you know, he was playing around the farm, I think, you know, maybe, you know, doing barnyard animals, sort of a which was quite common back then in that sort of 1920s era right music and then imitating trains and you know that side of the harmonica playing and then he started going out playing with sort of string bands and a medicine show I believe and he started playing age 18 out in public and then learning from someone called Little John as well so when you're saying you heard blues for the first time was this with Deford Bailey Joe because he'd heard obviously Deford Bailey was on the radio regularly playing at the Grand Ole Opry so do you think that was the first time he'd heard blues?

SPEAKER_07: 12:08

Well, either by the radio or some wind-up Victrola, that's possible. Or if he went to the local town and he heard musicians busking on the street, I would say those are the most likely possibilities, but I'm not aware of a specific incident.

SPEAKER_08: 12:30

And of course, you know, he doesn't play like Defa Bailey too much apart from, you know, the Fox Chases and the Trains and Lost John type style playing. but he doesn't generally play like Deepford Bailey. But something else you'd mentioned to me, Joe, is that he probably heard Henry Whitter, who was one of the early harmonica players, right? And the Raincrawl Blues is a song that, for example, he recorded with

SPEAKER_06: 12:52

Woody Guthrie. How do you sound? I'm not sure we are playing now.

SPEAKER_08: 13:09

That was probably another early influence from the blues side of things as well. Henry Witter was the

SPEAKER_07: 13:15

first to record the Fox Chase Lost John train imitation. And I believe if you listen to Henry Witter's Fox Chase... you can hear a lot of similarities between that and the way that sunny played it And Henry Witter's Foxchase, the record, it was widely sold and he recorded it two or three times. So it's easy to imagine that he heard it on a record, on a 78 record, if not at home, then somebody who had the record player.

SPEAKER_08: 14:21

So Adam, do you know any more about Sonny's early developments in these years?

SPEAKER_05: 14:27

Actually, I don't know so much about Sonny's life, but I think he stole a lot or took a lot from the first Sonny Boy Williamson. What Sonny plays is sometimes very similar to the first Sonny Boy Williamson.

SPEAKER_08: 14:40

Yeah, so it's interesting from a recording point of view because we'll get into Sonny's starting his recording career shortly, but when Sonny made his first recording in 1937, I understand that was six months after John Lee Williamson had made his first recording.

UNKNOWN: 14:57

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08: 15:14

Those two were real pioneers of getting harmonica recordings out. Henry Witter was before that, George, you mentioned. But starting to think about some of the real giants of the harmonica, those two were pretty close from releasing their first recordings.

SPEAKER_05: 15:29

And also Jordan Webb, the first harmonica player from Brownie McGee. was very similar to Sonny Terry, actually.

SPEAKER_03: 15:48

That's right. I mean, Sonny was different to everybody. He was from the pediment area, and all the players wanted to play like John Lee, but Sonny Terry was completely different to all those cats, you know? It was a sound that was different. All the cats today want to play like Little Walter, Big Walter, but Sonny, he was playing the country blues, and the country blues came into the blues, the real blues, you know, the Chicago blues. Sonny was completely different. His model heroes, I would say, would be Noah Lewis, Peg Leg Sam.

SPEAKER_06: 16:33

I ain't gonna make you look...

SPEAKER_03: 16:44

And that's where Sonny got his style from. But he came in with an individual style to be his own. And that, to me, was fantastic.

SPEAKER_08: 16:58

So let's get on to Sonny then starting to, you know, make a name for himself and get around playing. So the first person he started playing with, you know, that we're aware of in more serious ways, is Blind Boy Fuller. So Sonny's father and brother died both in, I think, in 1932. and then this sort of prompted Sonny then to move in with his brother in Waynesboro North Carolina and that's where he met Blind Boy Fuller and he started busking on the street with him and then Blind Boy Fuller and Sonny Terry then went to they moved to Durham where there was quite a good blues scene as I understand it and here you know there's other blues musicians such as Reverend Davis and so he was playing with you know with Blind Boy Fuller and they made their first recording in 1937 together they traveled up to New York the clip of the recording I'll put in at this point is what I have is reputes the first recording of Sonny Terry. I don't know if definitely it is, but I've got that from somewhere else.

SPEAKER_06: 18:01

So

SPEAKER_08: 18:05

yeah, so he started playing with Blind Boy Fuller and that's really what he's got his career started. Anyone can add anything about Blind Boy Fuller and his partnership with him?

SPEAKER_03: 18:14

As Adam said, it was Jordan Webb that was playing with some of these cats that were playing out there at that time. But Terry had this unique sound with a whooping hollering it got on the gig. And that was because they were all playing on the street And when they were playing on the street, the loudest sound made the most perfect sound. And Sonny was shouting and hooping and hollering with Blind Boy Fuller with that big guitar. And that's what made the sound. So he got the gig with that. And he also worked with all the blind guys. Most of them cats on the east side were blind. Blind Boy Fuller, Blind Blake, Blind Gary Davis, Blind Willie McLean. tell you know we're talking about them guys you know they were they were killers you know anything to

SPEAKER_07: 19:07

add about

SPEAKER_03: 19:07

blind boy

SPEAKER_07: 19:07

fuller i don't have anything to add about blind boy fuller other than trying to make clear that he was a big recording star at the time so it was definitely a boost for sunny terry but i do want to step back and mention that sunny terry had that great honor and privilege of playing as part of john hammond's spiritual to swing concert in 1938 in New York City. That was a really big career boost for Sonny.

SPEAKER_08: 19:39

Yeah, absolutely. So let's get on to that now. As you say, you played at Carnegie Hall in 1938 in part of the Spirituals to Swing concert. So this was one of those, you know, showing the black artists in this setting. Correct. And

SPEAKER_07: 19:54

the majority of the musicians that took part in this were city musicians. So it was pretty cool that Sonny Terry, who probably was the most rural, most country of the whole So from

SPEAKER_08: 20:13

what I read, I understand it was supposed to be Blind Boy Fuller who was playing in that show. But then Blind Boy Fuller shot his wife and therefore was arrested and then he couldn't do the gig. So then Sonny Terry was asked to do it in his place. You heard the same? I have

SPEAKER_07: 20:28

not heard that, but I think they were very wise to pick Sonny Terry because he definitely had the groove happening and the pyrotechnics happening. I think anybody who seen him at the Spirituals to Swing concert thought of the harmonica very differently before they heard him and seen him and after they heard him and seen him.

SPEAKER_08: 20:53

Yeah, and so there was big names there. Count Basie was there and the idea was to you know introduce black music to a white audience so this is predominantly a white audience which in 1938 was probably very early for that right I think

SPEAKER_03: 21:04

there was two stories I think yeah Blind Boy Fuller he took sick or he died or whatever and there was another story from John Hammond and he had said that they originally wanted the whole thing for the spiritual to swing was Robert Johnson and then the second guy I was Blind Boy Fuller, and then Blind Boy Fuller took sick, and I think he died, and then Sonny came in and did the spiritual swing, you know? And I have them recordings, and they're fantastic, you know?

SPEAKER_08: 21:40

Those recordings are available, and there's two recordings on there on the early recordings for Sonny. One of them's called Mountain Blues, where he plays solo. And there's another recording called The New John Henry, where he's playing with a washboard player. believe this washboard play was sort of you know accompanied there and helped him on stage yep

SPEAKER_03: 22:29

an albino guy called bull city red yeah bull

SPEAKER_08: 22:32

city red that's him that's him did you mention this was a big break for sonny and it allowed him to then get on the new york folk scene right and that established him in new york and i think at some point shortly after he moved to new york and he never moved away from there is that right i believe so great so so you mentioned the the the piedmont style paul so tell us about that um you know it's an east coast guitar blues style syncopated i understand it a bit ragtime and and so so what about the the piedmont style um you know and sunny playing that style of harmonica and blues

SPEAKER_03: 23:06

well that was it i started off i don't want to tell my story quickly but i got i heard a harmonica player called john mayall and then backtracked and got i heard some stuff by sunny terry and And that was it. My whole life changed after that. I didn't go to the Chicago Players, funnily enough. I went right across to the Pediment on the East Coast and I started listening to Sonny. And not just only Sonny, I listened to the Pediment Players, the Ragtime Players, Piano Players, Guitar Players, Violin Players. That's where I got my style. And I think that's where Sonny got that skippy beat, that rhythm, That beautiful rhythm that he had and it was a different sound. It was, for me personally, he could play it on his own. He didn't need accompaniment. And I didn't call it blues music, I called it hillbilly music. And that's where it came from, for me, personally.

SPEAKER_08: 24:22

Let's go on to Brown and McGee now. So he's a long-time partner and probably the most famous blues duo partner that has been. He first met Brown in 1939, performed with him in 1940 for the first time, and then Blind Boy Fuller died in 1941, and then Brown and McGee wrote a song. He was sort of a fan of Blind Boy Fuller. He was labelled Blind Boy Fuller No. 2 and that's when Brownie came in to replace Blind Boy Fuller as Sonny's partner.

SPEAKER_03: 24:49

He hated that

SPEAKER_08: 24:50

name. Blind Boy Fuller 2?

SPEAKER_03: 24:52

Yeah, he hated that name. Brownie hated that name.

SPEAKER_08: 24:55

He told me that. So Brownie also had his health issues so he had polio when he was young which gave him a limp so they both had their health issues and they met in the Durham scene earlier than that and they started recording together for the first time in 1941. So I understand this first recording with brownie he had there was two harmonicas brownie had another harmonica playing already with him

SPEAKER_05: 25:20

this was jordan webb on the harmonica the second one i think jordan webb was older than sonny taylor Sonny Terry took a lot of licks from him. They are very similar to each other. I think Sonny, of course, Sonny was better, technically.

SPEAKER_03: 25:52

There were a few recordings of Jordan Webb, but after Blind Boy Fuller died, Brownie came on the scene and then Sonny was the harp player of Blind Boy Fuller. So he dropped Jordan Webb and put Sonny in. And I think Sonny was more or less... I'm not saying a better player, but he had the name as well, you know, so that got him the grade, you know, so he jumped in on that and that was it.

SPEAKER_08: 26:23

So Sonny and Brownie became a permanent duo in 1942. Play it

SPEAKER_06: 26:28

for Brownie and see how she's talking. Play it for Brownie.

SPEAKER_08: 26:41

they played together for getting on for 40 years and they did loads of recording together and but they didn't just play together they also did some solo stuff as well but I mean obviously they were they were a huge thing together and a huge thing on the folk scene so you know Sonny had got into that was he playing this with Brownie you know he was playing with Pete Seeger and you know he played with Woody Guff we've already touched on and so any more about this this New York folk scene

SPEAKER_03: 27:09

well they moved to New York like you said 40s and they hooked in with Hoodie Ledbetter and all them cats you know and that was the folk scene out there Greenwich Village that was the start of Bob Dylan and everybody there they were all coming to see these cats you know and that was the different style that East Coast style they moved it across to New York they were playing this fantastic music that created a different sound you know that was Woody Guthrie But they were all in this sort of, it was a weird sort of system they were in, the whole lot of them. They went to politics, they went into this, they went into that. And I knew Larry Adler. And he used to knock about with Sonny and Brownie and Leadbelly, believe it or not,

SPEAKER_08: 28:00

in the 40s. Big thing about that folk scene is, you know, they were doing protest songs, right? So Woody Guthrie, obviously. That's right. So Woody Guthrie, a very famous folk musician who did protest songs. Oh, that's right. about fascist music, This Machine Kills Fascists as Woody Guffey had written on his guitar. That's right. Woody Guffey was a huge influence on Bob Dylan. So all those protest songs, I mean, I haven't heard too many protest songs from Sonny and Brownie. Did they do any protest songs themselves? Sure, they did

SPEAKER_07: 28:29

some. I couldn't give you a big list. I've always thought of Brownie as being a really brilliant songwriter. I personally think Sonny wrote a few good songs, but I think Brownie was a lot more prolific and he seemed to be a lot more active in the civil rights scene

SPEAKER_06: 28:49

yeah no interesting

SPEAKER_08: 29:06

that side of things yeah so this was in the 40s you know we did some interesting recordings with woody guffrey as well and you sent me a great one joe of him doing a version of Lost John, where Woody Guffrey's sort of telling the story of Lost John, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_04: 29:19

I'm going to tell you the story about old Lost John. Lost John was a boy that got loose from a chain gang down in Louisiana. About 16 butthounds took an after him. So,

SPEAKER_08: 29:40

yeah, so this folk scene, you know, that's how Sonny and Brownie really got their name right and how they started becoming popular on a mass level. You know, not blues, but in folk, so it's quite an interesting angle that probably a lot of people are not aware of, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 29:53

To me, in that period, I think they were the greatest of songwriters in that period of that sort of folk era.

UNKNOWN: 30:06

Where the cotton was flowing

SPEAKER_03: 30:19

They didn't push it too much. They just did their thing. What Sonny told me, I spent a bit of time with him and we were talking and he said, I only sing what I sing and play what I play and feel what I feel, you know. And it's the same as Brownie. They would just play something and Brownie would back him up and that was it. And Sonny would play something or Brownie would play something and they would just back each other up. And that was real bliss. and real feeling for me personally. That's what I got from them guys, you know. Not trying to be... Blues is not to be rehearsed, I don't think. It just has to happen. Off the cuff most of the time, you know.

SPEAKER_08: 31:04

So some interesting things that they did as well. So Sonny Terry was in a Broadway show called Finian's Rainbow in 1947 and 48 for 725 performances. So he played a song and he played, I think, one song in the show and, you know, on Broadway, right? So a big deal for him, I guess, and a nice steady source of income. Well,

SPEAKER_03: 31:26

that whole story, when Sonny always talks about it on his recordings, you know, he said he's doing Hooten the Blues and they all say where did you get that Sonny and he said oh man I got this thing called Hooting the Blues from Finian's Rainbow and this guy asked me to come up and do the show and I know who the guy was and it was Pete Seeger he introduced him to that show and Finian's Rainbow and they said Sonny you've got to play the same way every night Sonny and this was the boss man Des Sonny said, oh I've got to play the same Hoop and Holland, the same notes every night. They kept on going on about it and going on about it and Sonny said I can't do that the same way every night but you've got to play it the same way every night man. And Sonny turned around and he said, how much are you paying me for this man? And he up and told him and he said, oh yes, I can play it the same way every night. Nice,

SPEAKER_08: 32:30

yeah. So that's a great thing to him and then later on I think in the 50s both Sonny and Brownie were in another Broadway show so yes he was He had his time on the stage playing music. Getting into the 50s, you know, he was playing with Brown, who's this air from 1942, you know, as a sort of official duo. But again, he played with other people and also did some great solo stuff. So he does a great album called Sonny Terry Harmonica and Vocal Solos, where he plays, you know, solos and he's singing. And that's a great album. It's got some really beautiful songs on

SPEAKER_06: 33:04

it. Oh, hallelujah, amen. This

SPEAKER_05: 33:20

is one of my favorite albums. Actually, Solitaire and his Washboard Band. I think it's from the 60s. Yeah, that's fantastic stuff. That's actually my favorite album of Sonny Terry. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_06: 33:33

Yeah, yeah. I'm tired of this song. Oh, Sonny Jump. My nephew on the harmonica and Sonny Terry on the harmonica. Better known, Sonny Terry. Exciting

SPEAKER_05: 33:49

washboard band, one string bass and Bones and Bones played JC Bowers, his nephew and he also played the second harmonica on this recording and I actually want to do the same I have a washboard player and One string bass player. I only need the bones player. Then I'm going to make a recording.

SPEAKER_08: 34:11

Nice. Are you going to do Sonny Terry style for that or your own? Not too much. Maybe more my style. So Sonny, you know, he was doing his own thing as well as obviously playing with Brownie. And, you know, he went all around with Brownie and toured all around the world. Yeah, they went obviously across to Europe, you know, played in all sorts of places. I'm

SPEAKER_06: 34:33

a worried man, long way from home. along with a honk.

SPEAKER_08: 34:44

released, I think, in 1958, is an album, Paul, I know that you like, and it's the first album I heard of Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee, and the first album I heard of Sonny was the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee Sing album, which is a fantastic album, really high quality, but made on the Folkways

SPEAKER_06: 35:00

label. Well, I

SPEAKER_08: 35:17

All those songs are real gems, aren't they, Paul? I know you're a big fan of that album.

SPEAKER_03: 35:21

Oh, man, that's the holy grail for me. I mean, I studied that album and I really, I just put myself into it for 12 years and studied Sonny's harp for 12 years on that. And then I came out, and once I say, you study one, then you can play them all, you know, or try to play them all. But you cannot master a master. That album was just, for me, just a beautiful album where acoustic harmonica, I mean, wow. You just, if you can get close to it, it's pretty cool, man. It's pretty cool. And all them folkways things, There was a recording which was equally as good that I listened to many times was with Big Bill Brunsey, Brownie McGee and Sonny Terry with Studs Terkel. And it was a recording that they did in 1958, just shortly after that. The stuff on there is just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 36:28

Just to listen

SPEAKER_03: 36:48

to it acoustically, I mean, it's just beautiful stuff.

SPEAKER_08: 36:53

And then also in 1958, he played with Pete Seeger live at Carnegie Hall. He was back at Carnegie Hall. So Pete Seeger again, obviously a big folk musician, and Pete Seeger's playing banjo.

SPEAKER_03: 37:17

Well, Pete Seeger, you know, he created all that folk stuff. He had all them shows that he did with all the different folk artists and blues artists on his show in the 50s, you know. He introduced Sonny to different things. Like I say, he got Sonny to do Finian's Rainbow. You've got to remember that Sonny and Brownie, they were more into the folk music, you know. They were folk, not just blues, not that Chicago or anything like that, but they were in really that folk side of the East Coast side, you know. So, I mean, that's where they came from, you know.

SPEAKER_08: 38:03

Another really significant thing that happened, so in 1958, Sonny and Brownie toured the UK with the Chris Chris Borba, jazz band. So Chris Borba is sort of a trad jazz player in the UK

SPEAKER_00: 38:13

at the time.

SPEAKER_06: 38:21

and

SPEAKER_08: 38:30

I believe that this played quite a significant part in bringing the blues to the British white audience and then led on to the whole British blues explosion which as we know was the British took the blues back to America and then it became really popular with the Rolling Stones etc so I think that tour from what I've read with Chris Barber was quite instrumental and that Sonny Terry was you know one of the guys that those British blues those young British blues players saw to really influence them towards the blues.

SPEAKER_03: 38:57

Yeah, I mean, that was the whole thing. I mean, that created the whole R&B, the whole show. I mean, that whole thing of what happened. Sonny and Brownie, I mean, they were popular because they were enthusiastic. They played like a... They were great when they performed. They were a live act. It's like seeing Muddy or Big Walter or... When they entertained, they entertained, and that's what got the people, you know, so... that's what they did I saw them in their later years and I met up with them and talked to them and played with them actually and when they got up even in their later days they were still killing the crowd and that's what they did you know they went out and did the thing you know

SPEAKER_08: 39:48

so when Sonny and Brownie came over to UK in 1958 so after that we had the you know the American Folk and Blues festivals which ran from I think 1966 to 1967. And obviously lots of players, Sonny Boy came over to Europe and Muddy Waters and... That's right. But I think they were a precursor to that. I don't know if, you know, if Sonny and Brownie playing with Chris Barber was, you know, maybe led on to that a little bit because they'd come across and maybe introduced the blues before that started happening and then, you know, there's a wider set of, you know, blues players coming over to Europe to play, so...

SPEAKER_06: 40:41

MUSIC PLAYS

SPEAKER_01: 40:47

Hey, what's happening, y'all? Jason Ritchie from Blue Moon Harmonicas. And I'm here to tell you that Blue Moon Harmonicas are the way. You can customize them yourself or you can get Tom to do them. The website is a rabbit hole. We're talking about custom combs, custom cover plates, throwbacks, refurbished pre-wars, double reed plates, anything you can imagine, aluminum, ABS, plastic, phenolic resin, wood, any kind of comb you want, any kind of So getting into the

SPEAKER_08: 41:20

1960s, Sonny and Brownie were real staples on the music festival circuit. They played at the very first Newport Folk Festival, which was one of the most famous folk festivals in 1959. And so I think they were really out there on the music festival circuit.

SPEAKER_06: 41:40

I woke up this morning Put on I

SPEAKER_07: 41:53

can talk about some things leading up to it, which I think are significant. One of them is revisiting the first or that Folkways record. Paul had mentioned how powerful it was that Sonny could entertain an audience all by himself. He didn't need a band. He didn't need any accompaniment. to do that. I think that's a very significant thing to keep in mind. Not a lot of players could do that. Maybe Peg Leg Sam, yes. Rice Miller, yes. Maybe a little bit of Big Walter. But Sonny Terry could just do it.

SPEAKER_05: 42:47

the gospel player.

SPEAKER_03: 42:49

You're right.

SPEAKER_07: 42:50

You're

SPEAKER_03: 42:50

right, Joe.

SPEAKER_07: 42:51

And so shortly after that, they were involved in the play Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. And I recall hearing that in that time period between the shows, Sonny and Brownie had time to rehearse and create arrangements. So I think a lot of the recordings that they did in the 1950s are so brilliant because they took the time to work out vocal harmonies and how the song was going to lay and I think that that tour in the UK is really the result of both of those guys being highly polished as a duo and then of course we do know that they were both individually highly polished as solo performers so what you were getting by the time 1959 rolled around at the Newport Folk Festival are these two giants of blues blues folk music that was happening at the time. Just really, really powerful musicians.

SPEAKER_08: 44:12

So we're getting into the 60s here. There's some great albums released through the 60s. So there's one called Sonny's Story, which is where he's playing with J.C. Burris. He's the second harmonica player. So Adam, you mentioned that this is Sonny's nephew. So there's two harps on that, which is great. And there's a great song on there I love called My Baby Done Gone. That's a beautiful song, that one.

UNKNOWN: 44:37

¶¶

SPEAKER_08: 44:47

He also played with Lightning Hopkins, recorded on a Lightning Hopkins album called Last Night Blues in 1961.

SPEAKER_05: 45:06

Also, Sonny's King is also with Lighting Hopkins.

SPEAKER_08: 45:10

After Brownie and Sonny Sing, Sonny's King is my favorite. That's a fantastic album, that one. I think Adam tells about that.

SPEAKER_05: 45:17

First side of the album is with Lighting Hopkins, and the second one is with Brown Miggy.

SPEAKER_08: 45:21

Well, it's where I first heard him doing his famous I Want My Mama, speaking into the harmonica.

SPEAKER_06: 45:28

Now call your mama, harmonica. Call again. I don't like what you're callin', I call it real sad. Uh-huh, now tell the people what you want. You say you want your mama.

SPEAKER_08: 45:53

I know, Joe, that's something that you do as well in your party piece on Sonny Terry. So tell us about that I Want My Mama vocal trick.

SPEAKER_07: 46:03

It's a very effective thing in front of an audience. An audience tends to never forget when they hear somebody imitate or make the harmonica appear to speak. It goes back to the 1920s with William McCoy's Mama Blues.

SPEAKER_06: 46:32

You want your mama? Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_07: 46:43

And then there was another recording in the mid 1930s by Salty Holmes doing that. And Lonnie Glosson was also really well known of doing a talking harmonica bit. So it would only make good sense that Sonny would be able or would be wise to incorporate that into his thing also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 47:05

Well, I also believe that when Sonny and Brownie played together, they did sometimes, they didn't just play as a duo. Sometimes they played as a band and, you know, they would have piano and saxophone and under the name Sonny Terry and his bookshot five or, you know, Brownie had a sort of name as his. So they did sometimes have a full band when they were playing. Yes.

SPEAKER_06: 47:30

Got it there.

SPEAKER_07: 47:37

I think a lot of it has to do with these two guys just trying to make some money and get along with the record company. If the record company thought that adding other musicians was going to sell more records, I don't easily see them arguing with that. to interfere that much with their individual musical visions

SPEAKER_08: 48:14

that's about right joe yeah so joe you pointed me to a great live album so it's great to hear him playing live

SPEAKER_07: 48:19

there's that particular song that actually i had been listening to it for years from a live recording it was issued called drinking in the blues and then about 10 years ago i heard the complete version of of the song from beginning to the end and it really struck me that this was a really good example of the tension that there could be on stage between Sonny and Brownie. I think the two of them really knew how to irritate the other one just enough and so what happens with the song is Sonny announces here's a song I'm going to do I'm going to get back on my feet after a while. He goes into the song he starts doing the harmonica and then there's this stop time this break in music and at that point brownie changes the key and goes off and does something completely different so But what's remarkable to me is it does display, I think, Brownie trying to get under the skin of Sonny Terry, but Sonny Terry does not let it rattle him. He picks up the harp and he blows this mind-blowing instrumental for multiple choruses that you just think he's never going to run out of ideas.¶¶ It was like he knew how to survive in this environment where these two musicians were irritating each other. I mean, that was my take on it. I would be curious if Adam and Paul had a different take on the tension that the two of them would have on stage and how they would irritate each other. Well,

SPEAKER_03: 50:40

Joe, I think you're probably right. I mean, I knew Sonny and Brownie and they had issues together. I mean, they'd been on the road for... 25, 30 years or more, you know? Like being a married couple. Yeah, these things would have happened, you know? But I saw some issues with Sonny and Brownie where Sonny would start off on a key, Brownie would just start and play, and then Brownie would slip the capo on his guitar and then change the key, and then Sonny had to change the harp. It's mean. And then he would get the right key, and then they would change again, you know?

SPEAKER_05: 51:17

Maybe Braudy McGee had enough of Sonny Terry hard playing because he played since 30 years, all the time the same licks. at least on the recordings

SPEAKER_08: 51:29

Let's touch on that topic because it's not something that can be ignored Adam you're making points so a lot of the licks Sonny plays are the same or similar obviously he's got a wider palette than that but he does record quite a lot the same so what's the view on that?

SPEAKER_03: 51:46

All them early players harp players guitar players any player they had a style Lightning Sam Hopkins you had Big Bill Brunsey you had Big Joe Williams, John Lee Williamson, Sonny Terry. They had a format that they worked on and that was their style. And when you heard them play, you would say, oh, that's them. And for me, that period, it was successful for them. And they didn't want to move out of that successful groove, you know. John Lee, Sonny Boy I, I mean, he had all them, Good Morning Little School Girl. And you can tell it's him. You can tell it's Sonny.

SPEAKER_08: 52:27

yeah and i think that's something about you know for example when little walter came along he was one who he didn't play the same you know like some of the earlier players that you mentioned there paul so i think there was something there about those earlier players who did stick to the very similar style that's right and little walter sort of brought the mold a little bit yeah

SPEAKER_03: 52:44

and the guitar players changed freddie king the bb king they started to change a little groove you know but in that uh 30s 40s or even the 20s or whatever it was i think they stayed in that groove, you know, and they didn't want to move out of that.

SPEAKER_08: 53:16

So just getting back to the relationship between Sonny and Brownie then, because, you know, there's lots of stories. You know, they wouldn't stay in the same hotel. They traveled in, you know, different transport. You know, towards the end, I think they really weren't getting on. And I heard some things that maybe it was, you know, the commercial side of the music, or it was probably just that they were tired of each other after almost 40 years, right? So I think from the sort of mid-70s, they started performing less together, although they did still perform. And I believe, I'm not sure you can... who's got the definitive answer here, that maybe their last concert together was in 1981, and that's when they officially split. Do we know when their last concert was?

SPEAKER_07: 53:54

I found that date of 1981. I looked pretty carefully to find out when their duo officially ended, and I cannot cite a specific source, but it seems like it's a very good guess, a good number.

SPEAKER_08: 54:12

From my own research, I saw that they did a concert together in... Sydney Australia on January the 31st in 1981 and that's where I'd read that might have been their last concert together I don't know if they did I thought I saw another one maybe in 82 in the US so I'm not sure if anyone else has got any more takes on that

SPEAKER_03: 54:33

I haven't got anything on that. I'm not sure when they actually split.

SPEAKER_08: 55:00

So we're getting towards 1981. We're getting towards the last stage of Sonny's life. I think in 1981 he was slowing down. I don't think he was playing so much. But then significantly, he did an album with Johnny Winter, who was a well-known blues guitarist, in 1984 called

SPEAKER_05: 55:17

Whooping. We've got to talk to one another right now.

UNKNOWN: 55:19

Got it. so

SPEAKER_08: 55:36

And I think Johnny Winter was keen to bring Sonny and get him out there again and introduce him to a new audience. So I think that was a significant album with Johnny Winter.

SPEAKER_03: 55:44

Yeah, I worked with Johnny, Johnny Winter. I toured with Johnny, with my band. Johnny always felt that Brownie didn't accompany him the way he thought that Sonny needed that accompaniment. And he wanted to put that Chicago blues behind him. And rightly known, that was which was on alligator he put that out and he backed sonny that way you know sonny would just anything was behind him and that would sound cool sonny had his own sound his own brand his own stamp and what you ever put behind him was whatever it was you know but um that's what i said to johnny and johnny said you know that's what he wanted to put behind sonny you know to play that that sound that he thought that he would back him better than, well, I wouldn't say a brownie, but that Chicago sound, you know?

SPEAKER_08: 57:03

I think at this stage, you know, Sonny was, I think, 72 when he recorded this album. So I don't think he did a lot of live shows as a result of that. But it definitely exposed him to the audience. And I was definitely familiar. No. I was familiar with that album, I think, maybe a little bit later at the time. So yeah, it brought him back into prominence to some extent. And then in 1986 is the year that Sonny died on March 11th. He was aged 74. He died in Queens in New York. But he was still playing until this stage. He kept playing until he ended it.

SPEAKER_03: 57:35

I know we're talking about the Johnny Winter one and Alligator and stuff, but he also did The Crossroads. The movie, yeah. Rye Cooter, he was a big fan of Sonny and he brought him in.

SPEAKER_06: 57:52

¦

SPEAKER_03: 58:02

that was the last thing just before he died and I've got the picture that Ry Cora sent me of him shaking his hand just before he died and he was playing the harp on that show for me personally I loved Sonny he gave me my life my style I moved on to other players but he was something else

SPEAKER_08: 58:22

In 1986 I think the year he died he was inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame and then in 1998 he featured on a US postage stamp so that's That's the U.S. side of things. So I think you'll have to tell us about the postage stamp, Joe.

SPEAKER_07: 58:35

Yeah, that was a really big honor for a harmonica player. I think that Woody Guthrie and Lead Belly and Josh White were a part of that release with those folk singers. And I like to say that being on a postage stamp guaranteed that Sonny Terry got more licks there. than any other harmonica player.

SPEAKER_08: 59:03

That's fantastic, Joe. If anyone wants to see Sonny on this postage stamp, it's on the video with Woody Guthrie that I'll put a link onto the podcast page. So you can see Sonny on that postage stamp and all those licks.

SPEAKER_03: 59:16

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_08: 59:17

So great stuff. So let's talk a little bit about his vocals. So obviously we've talked a lot about his harmonica playing, but he sang. He was a big part with Brownie. They took it in turns to sing. I mean, a really characteristic thing thing obviously is all these whooping and hollering you know tell us about his whooping and hollering and then how that was such an integral part of his harmonica playing too

SPEAKER_07: 59:46

I would say that the whooping really comes from his street performing, that if you spend enough time playing harmonica acoustically, you know that those high falsetto singing things that he does... are something that really is going to cut through if you're playing out on a street or playing with a resonator guitar. And you can also tell if you listen to his earliest recordings, by the time he gets to the mid-1940s, he's lessening that falsetto thing in a lot of his songs. Of course, he was always doing it in his whooping piece that became a part of it, but he didn't sing so many songs strictly in his high falsetto voice anymore and I think it's because he wasn't doing as much or wasn't doing any more street singing

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:58

that's probably right Joe I mean but it was an integral part of his sound you know in the early days as you said Joe he sang basically in falsetto right it was a weird sort of sound you know which was really unique I don't know I mean some of the early players did that and I don't know if it was part of trying to get because they were all street musicians as rightly Joe says you know and so that got across and a lot of them players they would sing in a high falsetto pitch to get across the street so they could get more money you know so people would hear them and everybody says oh Brownie was a more beautiful singer singer or whatever it is but I've heard Sonny, Sonny sings he means it and what he plays it and when he sang falsetto or whatever he sang in the basic sound it was a beautiful sound, it was honest sounding what Sonny sounded like, you know sometimes I'm not going to put Brownie down he was the more sophisticated blues man, Sonny was just general and he wanted to be what he was and played what he played felt what he told me play what you feel and feel what you play

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:32

I mean

SPEAKER_08: 1:02:39

through his life then Sonny and well I'm with Brownie and also I had a huge discography and you know released so many albums I think over 600 so we've got to mention so Chris Smith I think he's based in Scotland he created a complete discography of Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee called That's The Stuff it'd be great if it was available for people to see this complete discography which I think Chris Smith put a tremendous amount of effort in putting together. So have any of you guys seen this discography?

SPEAKER_07: 1:03:08

I have a copy. For me personally, it signifies just how much Sonny Terry recorded throughout his career. There is so much there. I have so many records and CDs of Sonny Terry, but there's still a lot of stuff that I do not have just because of how much he recorded and how much stuff is out there.

SPEAKER_08: 1:03:32

So I don't think that's available online, is it, Joe? I couldn't find it when I was searching. I

SPEAKER_07: 1:03:37

don't know. I got my copy about 15 or 20 years ago. I don't know about it being online.

SPEAKER_08: 1:03:46

so let's then talk about we've touched on his whooping and hollering being a key part of his style so let's talk about Sonny Terry's style of harmonica playing obviously it's very rhythmical he does his you know his big blasting four draw and he's you know he does the whooping and hollering and you know country Piedmont style so what have you got to say about Sonny Terry's style I mean obviously very rhythmical Paul let's start with you that's obviously a key part of it

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:09

well he had so many rhythms and I think Joe and Adam had said he didn't need it any accompaniment. He was just on his own. He would just start playing and stamping his foot because he couldn't afford a guitar player or whatever it was. And it was a different sound altogether. If I can just put it in, you know, a little bit.

UNKNOWN: 0:00

...

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:43

He had a survive on the street and he would play like that and a foot stamping and whatever came in, like a washboard, like, you know, or a guitar, that would be an extra, you know, but Sonny's sound was just unique, a very personal sound and that's what he had. I love all the harp players in the world, Joe, Adam, everybody, Big Walder, Sonny Boy, I mean, I talk about the great harp players that I really got off on was Sonny, Big Walter and Noah Lewis. But, you know, you've got all the Kim Wilson, you've got this, you've got that. But Sonny had a personal sound and it was unique. It was his own little flair on it, you know.

SPEAKER_08: 1:05:33

So Adam, what have you got to say about Sonny's style of playing and how it's influenced your own playing?

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:38

Sonny was unique, he was different and what I like on Sonny Terry, his rhythm, that inspired me a lot. And also his tone, he has this special tone, completely different from everyone else. Also the chord sounds, they also sound a little bit different, kind of very soft.

SPEAKER_07: 1:05:58

Well, I definitely have to add that I think it's really powerful that he could create a chordal groove. As a matter of fact, probably more so than ever in the last five years. That is my challenge to any students or other harmonica players. The first thing I want to hear from them is play me a chordal groove. And if as a harmonica player, you can't lay down just a chordal groove that should be somewhat of a red flag because the groove is more important than the licks and the notes so i just love that about sunny terry because his groove never quit it was just a perpetual motion machine when he played so beautiful so

SPEAKER_08: 1:07:07

We mentioned that he played in the Crossroads Blues, which is a film which he played in. But he also played in various other films. He played in Steve Martin's The Jerk with Brown and McGee. And he played in the intro. I'll put the clip on the podcast links you can see on YouTube, them playing on the intro to that. And he played on The Colour Purple. He played in various other movies, The Book of Numbers, Cisco Pike. So, you know, he had his limelight on the big screen. He also did some stuff with Glen Campbell. And in 1982, both Sonny and Brownie received the National Heritage Fellowship Award for National Endowment for the Arts, which is the United States government's highest honor in the folk and traditional arts awards, apparently. Before we get on, just finish off by talking about his gear. Just ask you guys, have you got any favourite songs of Sonny's that you want to point out? We've talked about quite a few already on albums. Are there any particular songs that you have as favourites of his? Starting maybe with you, Adam.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:06

Do you know the album Midnight Special, Sonny Tyrone McGee? And the first song is called, I think, Sonny Squirrels.

UNKNOWN: 1:08:18

Sonny Squirrels

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:33

That's my favorite song.

SPEAKER_08: 1:08:35

What about you, Joe? Have you got a favorite song of Sonny's or is there too many to choose from? Because there literally is so many.

SPEAKER_07: 1:08:40

I have a few that I'd like to mention. That piece that he did, The Lost John with Woody Guthrie narrating, there is some of this hand-popping stuff that he does in it in an extremely syncopated rhythm with maybe some of the most exaggerated popping sounds on a G- harp to boot so it's a rather quiet harmonica. That one always floored me. I think it just blows my mind when I hear it. I had also mentioned the drinking in the blues, which morphed from gonna get on my feet after a while. That one has really got some special sauce in it. There wasn't one in particular, but I did give you another link of a song where sonny is doing what i call these lightning blues licks where he's basically playing the blues scale in this extremely fast way uh behind uh the singer behind brownie mcgee and he does it so effortlessly and so slippery and so greasy

SPEAKER_06: 1:10:46

so blue and mistreated for things that I did not do

SPEAKER_07: 1:10:56

Nowadays there seems to be a lot of importance and fascination for on playing fast, how fast you can play, but I find it odd that people are very dismissive of that type of fast playing that Sonny Terry did. It's just like they don't acknowledge him for doing that, which I think is frustrating.

SPEAKER_08: 1:11:21

And that song is Blue Feeling on the Back to New Orleans album, yeah. So what about you, Paul? Have you got a favourite track or more? I

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:28

mean, there's a few that really got me. It was like Down by the Riverside when Sonny was playing acoustically with Brownie.

SPEAKER_06: 1:11:37

Gonna meet my lovely mother Down by the riverside Study one more morning I

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:53

really liked blowing the fuses. I really got to hone in on harp with Sonny Style on that little track.

SPEAKER_08: 1:12:24

Yeah, great. So let's get on to the last section now, just to talk through gear for a little while. So Sonny played horn and marine bands. Do we know that? Did he ever play anything else?

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:37

I saw him playing the Golden Melodies in the late 70s. I saw him in London. I was hanging around with him, and he was playing Golden Melodies, and I was playing Echo Super Vampers then, but they were the marine band of the States.

SPEAKER_08: 1:12:54

So, Joe, you're a famous customizer. Are you aware if he had his harmonicas customized at all?

SPEAKER_07: 1:13:00

Oh, I'm not aware of anything like that. I do know from many people who reported they see him they knew that he was playing the golden melodies when they came out and one thing that's interesting to me is that i'm very picky about that chord holes one two three and four being in tune and the golden melody harmonica was much more equal temperament which means it's much more likely that that chord is going to kind of have a dissonance a grittiness to it that is not smooth and warm and full. But I don't recall hearing Sonny Terry doing any chordal stuff that ever sounded that way. So maybe he got lucky and he got some golden melodies that the chord wasn't quite out of tune. It's a long shot that somebody could have adjusted the tuning for him. I find that to be pretty unlikely or maybe he just had a way of playing where he could bend the chord to be a little bit more into Adam was commenting about, you know, the sound, the way that Sonny Terry played the chords was really appealing to him, and of course I agree with that also.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:22

Yeah, I agree with you there. Any harp, he would have melted into what he wanted to play it like anyway, so it didn't make any difference really. But with Adam saying about the chords, I just think that's the way they played. They would have picked up any harp and it would have just worked for them the way it had to. Today, we pick and choose what we want or it has to be put this way. I think the Marine Band in the early days I guess Sonny Terry

SPEAKER_08: 1:15:05

probably was given lots of harmonicas and he probably just chose the ones which worked best right out of the batch. The distinctive thing about Sonny is that he very frequently plays on an A harmonica. You mentioned earlier on, Joe, that he played on a G on the song that you liked, and also that Brownie would stick the capo on so that he had to change key. But yeah, he was very fond of the A harmonica. And do you think that was because, obviously, it worked so well with his rhythmical playing and the low register of it and the tone out of, say, the fourth row? There

SPEAKER_07: 1:15:36

certainly is a lot of things done with the A harp, but I think that he takes tended to favor the B-flat harmonica, which was a little bit higher of a key. I know that the Sonny's Squall was in the key of F on the B-flat harmonica, and Brownie probably enjoyed the jazzier sound of F. And then later on, when it became available, it was, I think, known Sonny had made the statement that his favorite key harmonica was the B-flat. natural which falls between the b flat and the c harp but i think if you collectively look at all the recordings that he made i think it's fair to say that the vast majority would be a b flat harp b natural harp and c harp those were the really the bulk of what he seemed to go to in my opinion

SPEAKER_08: 1:16:34

that range as you say that sort of three or four keys was what he liked and again probably because of his rhythmic style yeah that sort of lower the lower registered in the normal range that was available then was probably the reason he sort of went for those

SPEAKER_07: 1:16:46

i think so and also there's a point where you know you can't do that falsetto singing too much higher i think the top of his range may have been a g note which would make sense why he would do some of that with a c harmonica

SPEAKER_08: 1:17:04

I'm not aware of him ever playing any chromatic harmonica. Are we aware of him ever playing the chromatic?

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:09

Not that I have heard. There were some photo shoots of Sonny playing chromatic.

SPEAKER_08: 1:17:14

Yeah, they would often do the photo shoots because you can see them better in the photos, can't you? Because they're bigger than your hands. So I think that was quite a common thing, wasn't it? Yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:23

There was a couple of songs that Sonny did with Brownie, and he played straight harp, and that was very unusual for Sonny. I mean, he played cross most of the time. Well, virtually all the time. But there was a couple of things called Daisy, a few things with Brownie McGee, and he played straight.

SPEAKER_06: 1:17:44

HE SINGS Well, I went to see my baby And I don't bet it would not

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:57

rain But other than that, I mean, Sonny just played cross all the time, you know.

SPEAKER_08: 1:18:01

So what about his embouchure then? I think he's mainly a puckerer, isn't he?

SPEAKER_07: 1:18:06

I personally hear lots of tongue-blocking in his playing, but he did it most certainly different than anybody else in that era. He had a very, very unique way that that came out in his playing very unique way

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:21

joe's right there he played the high if you're playing an a harp he played the high e at the top when he does something like that that was the the tongue blocking at the top a lot of his stuff like He would put the tongue around that area, you know. Like Joe said, he put it in different areas. But he did tongue block, but most of the time he was pockering.

SPEAKER_07: 1:18:53

One of the things that he did that I just love are his, what I've called, tongue shakes. So he's moving his tongue laterally between holes. So this... I just love that slippery, greasy sound because you have the freedom to do that for a very long time, and it's a lot more effortless than trying to move the harmonica or move your head. I think that is one of the things that... I've run into a few living harmonica players that do that, but I think that Sonny Terry was the only guy that did it in that era with two holes next to each other. It's such a beautiful sound. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_08: 1:19:45

Yeah. So I think as you're saying there, Joe, that he's approached his tongue blocking probably very much as part of his rhythm playing here. And so he's certainly not playing in a tongue blocking Chicago style, you know, as well established he didn't play that style. So that's why it was so different the way he did use his tongue and his rhythmical playing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:01

Maybe he played just kind of u-blocking or something like that. I don't know. But what's about this one?

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:14

yeah

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:15

maybe he

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:15

played

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:16

tongue blocking

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:17

yeah that's a tongue blocking style

SPEAKER_08: 1:20:20

so what about amplification I mean obviously he mainly played with an acoustic mic I mean did he use any amps or was he pretty much always using an acoustic mic and you know in terms of PA acoustic

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:31

he always played acoustic Until the end, and he started to cup the mic with Brownie, because Brownie started to amplify his guitar, you know. But there's some recordings I've got with Sonny. It was in the 50s, I think, when Little Walter had the hit with Duke. So his record company tried to get Sonny to play with an amplified sort of sound. And all Sonny's doing is playing the same style. Put it through a mic, you know. an amplifier it just sounds the same you know but they were trying to create a sound that wasn't It wasn't his sound, you know. I mean, they just wanted it to sound like Little Walter, but Sonny couldn't play like Little Walter, and Little Walter couldn't play like Sonny Terry. So that was the only time I heard... I've got some recordings of him through an amp, but for me personally, Sonny is just acoustic playing, beautiful sound, and that's it.

SPEAKER_07: 1:21:31

I think he was a sideman by the name of a guy called himself Cousin Leroy. There's, I think, a half a dozen amplified... Sideman Cuts.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:43

They're also recording with Stick McGee, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:47

No, it's not with Stick McGee. It's with Brownie. And he's playing through an amplifier. Sonny.

UNKNOWN: 1:22:04

Sonny.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:14

And there was some in the mid-50s, I think, was... Oh, I'm trying to think of the guy's name. O'Reilly somebody. It was in New York. They recorded some stuff, and it was through an amplifier. Sonny was just playing his own style through an amplifier, basically, you know, so... MUSIC PLAYS

SPEAKER_08: 1:22:44

but yeah obviously it's well established as being pretty much an acoustic player and you know playing just for a vocal mic and a PA so were we aware of him using any effects or I guess not right maybe just what the sound man put a bit of reverb or whatever

SPEAKER_07: 1:22:56

it's funny you ask that because I would say that Sonny had more acoustic mouth generated effects crazy sound like that so he had more acoustic effects than anybody else but of course he did not use any kind of pedals or anything like that to my knowledge

SPEAKER_08: 1:23:18

but from that John I think you mentioned there Paul that he was playing off the mic he wasn't holding the mic so he could use his hands his hands were a massive part of his sound

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:26

well in the early days he was just playing as off the mic as possible that was the beauty of it and their control was if they moved closer to the mic it got louder and if they moved further back the volume got quieter but in the later days like the 80s before Sonny died him and Brownie went out and Brownie was playing through an amp so he just cupped the mic and it was through the PA it was not through an amp or anything like that he just played through the PA and he just played his own style around Brownie like Joe said you know music he would just put it in like that, play it through the PA and that was it.

SPEAKER_08: 1:24:23

Just final question then, you know, your last thoughts on Sonny, his legacy to, you know, to music now and on yourselves, to the harmonica in general. So let's start with you, Adam, you know, what's he meant to you and to the harmonica in general and maybe wider blues?

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:37

Yeah, I think this guy changed my life. I think without Sonny Terry, I probably I would not play harmonica because there is no one who could be inspired so much as Sonny Terry did. I never met this guy, so I'm too young for this. I come from different countries. I just love his music and he inspired me a lot to play harmonica all day long, back then when I was young. Also Paul Lamb, he inspired me also a lot. I saw this guy, I saw Paul in Berlin back in the 90s.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:11

Thank you Adam.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:12

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_08: 1:25:13

Paul inspired me too, he's been a British player, I was very aware of him and he's done some amazing playing Paul.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:18

I was always thinking that Sonny Terry is a black guy from down south and I'm a white European guy and I will never play such a harmonica like Sonny Terry. But then I saw Paul Lamb and yeah, he's also a white guy and he's this really cool Sonny Terry style like Sonny Terry himself I think Paul is the most close to Sonny Terry

SPEAKER_08: 1:25:41

he does a fine job so Paul tell us about Sonny's influence on you but on the harmonica in general

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:47

well if it hadn't been for Sonny I wouldn't be playing that's what started me off I got that little thing in a junk shop Brownie McGee and Sonny Terry sings I spent 12 years modelling myself on that sound and just I was in by his sound and it got me and then I moved on to the other players obviously and got my own style but for me Sonny is the greatest of all

SPEAKER_08: 1:26:18

Joe, what about from you? Maybe on yourself, but also on the wider harmonica as well. Certainly, a big thing, talking to all the people I've interviewed on the podcast, so many of them said that the first harmonica player they saw was Sonny Terry. I think that's because he did a lot of touring, a lot of playing with Brownie, as we've covered. He's definitely had his influence on players, the first harmonica player they heard in many cases. What do you think about his influence on the wider harmonica community?

SPEAKER_07: 1:26:45

Well, before I say anything, I do want to make sure it's clear that I'm just delighted to do this here with Adam and Paul. I think you two guys are two mega badass musician harmonica players, and I'm always smiling when I listen to you guys do your thing. Sonny is the more that I listen and go back I'm always hearing new stuff I'm always hearing another layer another dimension of Sonny Terry that I had previously missed I agree with Paul I think Sonny Terry was the greatest diatonic harmonica player that ever lived and I can back that up with a lot of facts and a lot of things about his playing that are very unique very individual very creative and nobody else did. It's hard for me to comment on Sonny Terry's legacy and influence because I sadly have to believe that Sonny Terry is so sophisticated and is so deep and technical as a player that I think a lot of people don't really get it. They never really spend the time and listen and try to understand those layers and those dimensions. You're right, Joe. You're right. They would rather spend money on a custom harmonica and a custom amp and a custom pedal and a custom this as opposed to putting the time in to actually practicing and owning the technique of which I know that you two gentlemen, Adam and Paul, have put in that kind of time and really understand how sophisticated Sonny Terry was. So I only hope that people will learn to appreciate the rhythmic stuff that he does and at least start trying to capture that basic sunny terry rhythmic chordal groove which to me is just this is the essence of it the

SPEAKER_06: 1:28:53

I'd

SPEAKER_07: 1:28:58

like very much to hear more of that kind of stuff happening, if I could have my way. But I continue to go back to Sonny Terry, and I continue to hear things that I didn't initially hear, and my respect for him only grows and grows.

SPEAKER_08: 1:29:15

Fantastic. Thanks for that, Joe. Great summary.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:18

Great, Joe.

SPEAKER_07: 1:29:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:19

Let me add to that, Joe, I think. If you start... Get on with Sonny and stick with him like I did for 12 years, nothing else, listening to Sonny. Once you get to get his groove or his playing, you can play them all. You can play Sonny Boy, you'll play Big Walter, you'll play Little Walter because they're all playing the same thing. They're just phrasing it a little bit different, that's all. But Sonny had that rhythm and that's what you said before there. That's what counts.

SPEAKER_08: 1:29:53

Right on. So there we go, everyone. Make sure you all go and listen to lots of Sonny Terry and get studying those beautiful, complex rhythms that he played. So thanks so much, guys, for joining me today to talk about Sonny Terry on the 125th episode. It's great to talk about Sonny and to share your stories and the knowledge about him. So thanks so much for joining me today. Paul Lamb, Joe Felisco, and Adam Sikori. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Once again, thanks to Zydle for sponsoring the podcast. Be sure to check out their great range of harmonicas and products at www.zydle1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zydle Harmonicas. Thanks to Paul, Joe and Adam for joining me today and sharing their insights into the great Sonny Terry. You can buy Sonny Terry's actual harmonicas and other memorabilia from the official Sonny Terry estate via the Blue Moon Harmonicas website. The link for that is on the podcast website. And if you're interested in early harmonica recordings, I'll point you again at Roger Trowbridge's Harmonica Archivist site, on an episode where Joe Felisco introduces a set of recordings from numerous players of that era. The link is also on the podcast page. I hope you've enjoyed this retrospective on Sonny Terry in episode 125, truly one of the great masters of the harmonica. And as Joe said, you'd better get working on your chordal rhythmical playing, and there's only one player to start with that. I'll leave you now with Sonny playing us out with one of his

SPEAKER_06: 1:31:26

signature pieces. This is Whooping the Blues.

UNKNOWN: 1:31:50

Whooping the Blues Oh, Bye. Bye.