Big Walter Horton retrospective with Tom Ball, Mudcat and Madcat

Tom Ball, Peter ‘Madcat’ Ruth and Michael ‘Mudcat’ Ward join me on episode 139 for a retrospective on Walter Horton. 

Walter was likely born on April 6th, 1918, in Horn Lake, Mississippi.

He probably made his first recordings in 1939 with Little Buddy Doyle but it wasn’t until the early 1950s that he started recording regularly. After making some early cuts under the name Mumbles, he made numerous recordings as a sideman in the 1950s, including the blues harmonica classics Easy and Walking By Myself. 

Walter enjoyed a resurgence on the back of the blues boom in the 1960s, touring the US and Europe and playing with various bands including the Willie Dixon Allstars, Fleetwood Mac and Johnny Winter.

In the 1970s he made some more albums under his own name, including with the Johnny Nicholas band, and also appeared on the Grammy winning Muddy Waters album, I’m Ready.

Big Walter played up until his death on December 8th, 1981, and was inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame the following year. And without doubt left his legacy as one of the greatest blues harmonica players of all time.

Links:

Discography by Stefan Wirz: https://www.wirz.de/music/horton.htm

Information on Big Walter: https://www.encyclopedia.com/education/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/horton-walter

Bob Corritore photo gallery: https://bobcorritore.com/photos/big-walter-horton-photos/

Videos:

Hard Hearted Woman, States Records: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89P8ZMfTHfk

Solo recording from Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6RkAlhX7fg

Walter ‘appearing’ in The Blues Brothers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUUyFrHERpU

Walter Horton discusses using his hands in Ronnie Earl’s apartment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX0Eu5Lqexc

Playing That Aint It & Down Yonder with Ronnie Earl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FghNW94YUaM&t=90s

Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
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Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
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Chapters

• 1:37 Peter ‘Madcat’ Ruth, Michael ‘Mudcat’ Ward and Tom Ball join me for a retrospective on Walter Horton
• 1:50 Madcat was last on the podcast on episode 12 of the podcast in June 2020 and met Walter when he had three lessons with him in 1967 and 1968
• 2:08 Mudcat played bass in some live shows with Walter towards the end of his career and spent quite a bit of time with him
• 2:30 Tom Ball was last on the podcast in January 2022 and authored the book: ‘Sourcebook of Little Walter/Big Walter Licks for Blues Harmonica’
• 2:49 Tom saw a Walter perform numerous times in the mid to late 1960s in Los Angeles
• 3:30 Many people have Big Walter as their favourite blues harmonica player, and Madcat says Willie Dixon said he was the best
• 4:00 It’s not entirely clear when Walter was born, but it was probably 1918
• 4:33 Mudcat was involved with the benefit that raised money for Walter’s gravestone, and 1918 was put onto that
• 4:49 Likely born in Dooleys Island, Horn Lake, Mississippi
• 5:31 He reputedly learnt harmonica from the age of five and performed on the street from a young age
• 5:42 Moved to Memphis when still quite young
• 6:09 There is a credit to ‘Shakey Walter’ recording with the Memphis Jug Band in 1927, but it is extremely unlikely to be Walter, who would have been less than ten years old then
• 6:13 The discography information used in the podcast was put together by Stefan Wirz
• 6:56 Probably Will Shade on the Memphis Jug Band recordings although Walter did play with the Memphis Jug Band sometimes
• 7:44 First recording by Walter was probably with Little Buddy Doyle from 1939
• 9:11 Walter made various claims to have recorded on the Memphis Jug Band to Tom and other tall stories he told to Mudcat
• 9:57 Didn’t have a lot of commercial success or make much money through his music career
• 10:28 Most of his work came as a sideman
• 10:49 Discography shows that he didn’t record through the 1940s and may have had some health issues, or just a day job
• 11:03 Avoided the draft to serve in World War II, possibly due to his eye problems
• 11:15 May have spent some time in a prison camp and did drive a taxi and a tractor as jobs for a while
• 11:40 He had an aversion to have a flash photographer take a picture of him
• 11:48 Recorded for Sun Records in 1951, under the name of Little Walter, although that song wasn’t released until later
• 12:53 Likely called himself Little Walter before he knew about the Little Walter, or at least before Little Walter was famous
• 13:43 The other names he was known under was Shakey Walter and Mumbles, names which he didn’t appreciate
• 14:12 The Mumbles name was probably given to him by the RPM records label, which released some fine early cuts from Walter
• 16:30 It was unlikely he gained much recognition from these early RPM releases as they didn’t include his actual name, just Mumbles
• 17:11 Did a lot of work as a sideman through the 1950s including with Johnny Shines in 1953, which Madcat and Tom are big fans of
• 18:40 Relocated to Chicago from Memphis in 1953 and spent around a year as the harmonica player in the Muddy Waters band, losing his place with Muddy due to being unreliable
• 19:12 Had issues with alcohol abuse
• 19:19 According to Walter he lost the spot in Muddy’s band because he was sick but Muddy says he took a better paying gig and so Muddy let him go
• 19:46 Two great songs he recorded with Muddy were She’s Alright and Sad Sad Day
• 20:34 Released an album under his own name in 1954: Walter Horton and his Combo
• 21:16 Doing mostly sideman work in the 1950s, probably because he was quite shy and didn’t want to be a frontman
• 22:01 Walking By Myself recorded with Jimmy Rogers in 1956 which wasn’t rehearsed much
• 24:00 The other song recorded at the same session has a very similar solo
• 24:58 Easy, recorded in 1953 with Jimmy DeBerry is another all time classic blues harmonica song
• 25:46 Southern Woman recording with Tommy Brown
• 26:14 Worked with pianist Sunnyland Slim on numerous occasions, partly down to the influence of Willie Dixon, who was a big fan of Walter
• 27:14 The lessons Madcat had with Walter in 1966/7 after having heard him on the album: Chicago The Blues Today
• 27:56 Madcat had his youth group hire Walter and Johnny Shines (and a young Iggy Pop on drums) and that was the first time he heard him play live
• 29:22 It was from the gig that Madcat heard Walter gave lessons and he tried to contact him several times before arranging the first one
• 30:47 Took a second lesson about six months later and another six months after that
• 30:53 Madcat tells how Walter would show him how to play something without much explanation
• 31:54 Mudcat tells of how Walter showed how to ‘break in’ a harmonica by breathing cigarette smoke through it (not recommended!)
• 32:33 At that time Walter kept his harmonicas and mic in a leather doctors bag, with the harmonicas stored in a haphazard way
• 33:05 The mic Walter had at that time was a bottom of the line Shure high impedance mic
• 33:18 Years later Madcat saw him with a different mic every time
• 33:23 When Mudcat played with him at the end of his career Walter would be meticulous in wrapping his cable and mic when tidying it away
• 34:04 Discography shows that he didn’t record anything between 1957 and 1963 before enjoying a resurgence during the blues boom of the mid-1960s
• 34:55 Travelled to Europe to play in the American Folk Blues Festivals on four occasions
• 35:10 Played with the Willie Dixon Allstar band
• 35:27 Released The Soul of the Blues Harmonica under his own name in 1964, which contained his first version of La Cucaracha
• 36:01 The Soul of the Blues Harmonica came out on Argo Records, a division of Chess Records, so the Chess brothers had become interested in Walter
• 36:21 The Soul of the Blues Harmonica had quite a range of genres, so wasn’t just blues
• 37:15 The song Christine was named after his daughter
• 37:46 Recorded at the same party in Germany as Sonny Boy Williamson II, with the tracks from both appearing on the Solo Harp album
• 38:34 Tom had read that the only recording of Walter playing chromatic harmonica is on the Solo Harp album
• 39:19 Mudcat says he did play chromatic and Kim Wilson used to tease him that he never used the button
• 40:03 Mudcat says he played chromatic on one gig they played together but he didn’t usually bring it with him
• 40:10 Charlie Musselwhite appears with Walter on the album: Chicago The Blues Today, which was an influential album to a lot of harmonica players (Junior Wells also on the album)
• 41:28 Walter toured Europe with Big Mama Thornton
• 41:53 Recorded an album with the original Fleetwood Mac
• 42:58 Made an album with Carey Bell in 1972, with Carey Bell something of a protege of Walters
• 44:14 Walter claimed to Tom to have taught harmonica to most of the great players, including in an interview where he discusses doing so with Sonny Boy II
• 45:26 Sonny Boy II was older than Walter, probably by six years, and they did know each other when they were in Memphis
• 46:05 The 1972 album recorded with the Hot Cottage band has some great tracks
• 47:45 Album An Offer You Can’t Refuse, a double-sided album with Paul Butterfield. Issued in 1972 by Red Lightning from two separate recording sessions in 1964 by Swedish radio: Horton from the Sutherland Hotel, Chicago. Butterfield from Big Johns, Chicago
• 48:30 Walter worked a lot with Johnny Nicholas later in the 1970s, including on the Fine Cuts album in 1978
• 50:57 Played on the 1978 Muddy Water’s album, I’m Ready, which won a Grammy
• 51:42 Story of Johnny Nicholas travelling over the border into Canada when Walter was carrying a gun
• 53:17 Appears in the 1980 movie, The Blues Brothers, although it’s not actually him playing, it’s Joe Berson, who was a student of Walter
• 54:09 Walter’s playing wasn’t used in The Blues Brothers because he was erratic, and not getting the takes down
• 54:16 Was going to be Muddy Waters band in The Blues Brothers but Muddy was sick and couldn’t do it
• 54:22 Mudcat tells of a film made, which wasn’t released (available on YouTube) where Walter is interviewed in Ronnie Earls apartment
• 54:56 More on Walter’s aversion to cameras and the impact this had on The Blues Brothers movie
• 55:46 Another concern with the camera was that he would be fined if the Musicians Union saw a picture of him playing
• 56:59 Played some live concerts with Mudcat on bass, the last one of which was captured and released as the Live At The Knickerbocker album in 1980, for which Walter didn’t receive any money (nor the band)
• 58:46 Mudcat says playing bass in the band with Walter was one of the biggest thrills he had in his musical career
• 58:56 Mudcat tells us what it was like to play with Walter, who he describes as ‘charming’
• 59:34 The time Walter played a gig sitting with someone he knew in the audience
• 1:00:39 Walter wasn’t a strong band leader, when playing with Mudcat at least, who just had to work out what Walter started playing
• 1:01:40 The album with Mudcat was recorded just one year before he died, but Walter was still in good shape then
• 1:01:55 Mudcat tells a story when Walter turned up for a gig all beat-up and Walter told him whenever he came back from touring his son would beat him up and steal his money
• 1:03:16 Walter lived in a violent neighbourhood and Mudcat was advised not to walk around there
• 1:03:48 Was a quiet man who let his playing do the talking
• 1:04:18 Sometimes he didn’t feel like playing and he refused to do so and sometimes would do varied songs and he was full of music
• 1:04:43 Walter’s style of harmonica playing was that he played with the melody, whereas Little Walter played across the melody. So they approached the structure of the song differently
• 1:05:15 Didn’t always play a straight twelve bar, so band would have to watch him to keep the song structure together
• 1:05:31 Tom’s Sourcebook of Walter Horton licks was just to tab out Walter’s playing, and didn’t compare the approaches of Big and Little Walter
• 1:06:23 Both Big and Little Walter were tongue blockers and Tom is a pucker player so didn’t feel qualified to teach their tongue blocking techniques
• 1:06:53 Walter did plenty of singing in his career and he certainly could carry a tune
• 1:07:21 Sang with the live shows with Mudcat and Walter would often sing through the harmonica mic
• 1:08:02 Once again check out Bob Corritore’s website to see some great photos of Walter
• 1:08:21 Favourite songs of the panel
• 1:08:41 Madcat likes the songs recorded with Johnny Shines, Walking By Myself and his first position playing
• 1:09:50 Tom also loves the songs with Johnny Shines and Hard Hearted Woman
• 1:11:41 Walter made a lot of recordings through his career
• 1:12:30 Madcat also loves all the songs from Chicago The Blues Today
• 1:13:04 Mudcat likes Stockyard Blues recorded with Floyd Jones
• 1:14:14 Mudcat and Jerry Portnoy saw the best live show of Walter
• 1:14:37 Another couple of stories from Mudcat on Walter’s strong aversion to cameras
• 1:16:29 Another similarity to Sonny Boy II who also didn’t like to be known due to the alleged stabbing he had committed in defending himself
• 1:16:48 Neil’s favourite songs (besides Walking By Myself and Easy) are Blues In The Morning and Walter’s Swing
• 1:17:15 Died on December 8th, 1981, probably 63 years old (depending on birth year), after returning from a European tour
• 1:17:51 There are rumours he may have been murdered following a robbery
• 1:18:01 Walter is buried in Restvale Cemetary, Worth, Illinois, with Mudcat helping raise the money for a headstone from a benefit concert
• 1:18:48 Inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame in 1982
• 1:19:02 Always played Hohner Marine Bands, and there is one etched onto his gravestone
• 1:19:11 Played a Fender Bassman and possibly an Acstatic crystal mic when performing with Mudcat towards the end of his career
• 1:19:32 Was using a different mic each time Tom saw him play: sometimes a Shure SM57 or 58 and a large bullet mic
• 1:19:56 When Tom saw him play in the west of the US Walter was mainly using a Fender Princeton amp
• 1:20:16 Seemed to be using a different rig each time Tom saw him, but his tone was always the same great tone
• 1:21:00 Mudcat knows he used a Blackface Princeton, now owned by Sugar Ray Norcia
• 1:21:11 Would sometimes use both a vocal mic and harmonica mic to play harmonica through
• 1:21:51 The great players sounded great no matter which gear they were using
• 1:22:07 Madcat also saw him seeming to play with a different amp and mic each time and Walter asked Madcat to sit him with him on several occasions
• 1:23:02 Had huge hands and big lung capacity, so his body was a major part in his sound
• 1:23:20 Could play his amazing vibrato with an acoustic and a bullet mic
• 1:24:10 Didn’t use any effects pedals
• 1:24:26 Embouchre was tongue block
• 1:24:35 Madcat cites Willie Dixon as stating Big Walter was the best blues harmonica player
• 1:25:12 Tom says Walter is one of the big five harmonica players, alongside Little Walter, Sonny Boy I and II and Sonny Terry, who have influenced every blues harmonica player since
• 1:25:42 Mudcat says you have to hear him to understand, and that words don’t do it justice
• 1:25:58 Mudcat shares a couple of the phrases Walter used a lot: “This ain’t something I heard, this is something I know”, and (when parking) “Just go back until you hear glass rattle”

Transcript

Neil Warren: 0:00

Tom Ball, Peter Madcat-Roof and Michael Mudcat-Ward join me on episode 139 for a retrospective on Walter Horton. Walter was likely born on April 6, 1918 in Horn Lake, Mississippi. He probably made his first recordings in 1939 with Little Buddy Doyle, but it wasn't until the early 1950s that he started to record regularly. After making some early cuts under the name Mumbles, he made numerous recordings as a sideman in the 1950s, including the blues harmonica classics Easy and Walking by Myself. Walter enjoyed a resurgence on the back of the blues boom in the 1960s, touring the US and Europe and playing with various bands including the Willie Dixon All-Stars, Fleetwood Mac and Johnny Winter. In the 1970s, he made some more albums under his own name, including with the Johnny Nicholas Band, and also appeared on the Grammy-winning Muddy Waters album, I'm Ready. Big Walter played up until his death on December 8th, 1981, and was inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame the following year, and without doubt left his legacy as one of the greatest blues harmonica players of all time. This podcast is sponsored by Zeidel Harmonicas. Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world, at www.zidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zidel Harmonicas. So hello Peter Madcat Roof, Michael Mudcat Ward and Tom Ball and welcome to a retrospective to talk about Big Walter.

Tom Ball: 1:44

Happy to be here.

Neil Warren: 1:45

Yeah great so I'll just introduce you guys briefly. So two of you guys have been on before. So Madcat you were on back in episode 12 in June 2020 which is over five years ago now. So great to have you back on. Thanks for joining again. Big connection with you with Big Walter is that you had lessons with Walter Horton here in Chicago.

Madcat: 2:03

That's right. Three lessons,

Neil Warren: 2:06

1967 and 1968. And Mudtat, you played bass with Big Walters towards the end of his life. And you did a couple of live concerts with him, which were available on album. Yeah, the live at the Knickerbocky and the Little Boy Blue, which I think both from 1980, just the year before he died.

Mudcat: 2:22

That's right. And I hung with him quite a bit during those last years of his life.

Neil Warren: 2:27

Yeah, fantastic. So it'd be great to hear about that. And Tom, we've got a mad cat and we've got a mud cat. So I was thinking we could call you a mod cat. A mod cat? I'm a rocker, man. You wrote the source book of Little Walter, Big Walter Licks for Blues Harmonica, which is a well-known harmonica tuition book. So you've studied Big Walter's chops, yeah?

Tom Ball: 2:49

Well, yeah, I used to see him quite often in the mid to late 60s in Los Angeles. When he wasn't in Chicago, it seemed like he was in LA. quite a bit, and he'd be working with, well, sometimes with Big Mama Thornton and sometimes with J.B. Huddo. He was often a sideman at the Ash Grove, so I used to see him in there a lot and talk to him a lot, and he was a most interesting fellow. I'm sure Mad Cat can vouch for it, but I always enjoyed seeing him. I loved his tone and the way he played was just wonderful. I had to study that I still can't do it, but I sure enjoy listening to it.

Neil Warren: 3:30

Yeah, I think starting on that point about, I think in many ways is maybe kind of secretly a lot of people's favorite blues harmonica player, right? Because obviously we've got Little Walter, we've got, you know, we've got Sonny Boy, we've got Sonny Sayer. But yeah, he's great tone and that sort of smoothness. You know, I think a lot of people do have him as their favorite, don't they?

Tom Ball: 3:48

Yeah, that's for sure.

Neil Warren: 3:49

Not

Madcat: 3:49

only that, I talked with Willie Dixon one time and Willie Dixon said, oh yeah. Walter Horton's my favorite harmonica.

Neil Warren: 3:58

Yeah. There you go. So let's start then talking about his early life. So doing my research as usual, there wasn't tons of information about Walter Horton. So I'm hoping we can fill a few gaps in and we'll do our best. But I mean, like a lot of these guys, his birth year is a little bit ambiguous. So I've seen that he's either born in 1917, 1918 or in 1921, but his gravestone does show 1918. So any takers on that that's a definite year he was born? No, no.

Mudcat: 4:32

All I could say is we were a part of the benefit that raised the money and bought the headstone. And Kaz Kazanov, the sax player, verified that date at that time.

Neil Warren: 4:46

So I think that's what we'll go for. And so his place of birth is also, I think, a little bit ambiguous. So I have that he was born in Dooley's Island, Horn Lake, Mississippi. That seems to be a reasonably reliable piece of information, Dewey. Any more on that?

Tom Ball: 5:02

That's where I always heard he was born. And then, of course, he moved to Memphis at a young age. But yeah, I was always under the impression that was the correct place. Born late,

Neil Warren: 5:12

yeah. Yeah, so we're going for April 6th is the date, again, on the gravestone, I think, isn't it? So we got April 6th, 1918 that he was born. And so he lived until 1981, which we'll talk about later on. But yeah, so he lived to be 63 years old, I think, yeah. From the information that I've seen, he learned harmonica sort of very young, started playing at age five and then sort of started performing on street corners and stuff. So yeah, I think, you know, he picked it up pretty early. You mentioned there, Tom, that he moved to Memphis. So in his early teens, in the sort of 1930s, he moved from his hometown and then went to Arkansas and then moved up to Memphis. And then he started playing around there. He was playing on the streets a lot, playing, you things and then he was kind of moving around the Mississippi Mississippi Delta and that's what we've got these early developments and then playing around there is actually talk about him having played with a Memphis Jug Band there's a fantastic discography which I'll which I'll base a lot of my tracks on on Big Walter by a guy called Stefan Wurz a German guy And there's very sketchy information that he might have recorded with the Memphis Jug Band in what would have been... He would have only been like six years old. It was 1927. So I think... But he's actually credited as Shaky Walter. So...

Tom Ball: 6:35

If you look at Godrich and Dixon's discography, it calls that harmonica player shaky Walter, but if it's Horton, he would have only been 9 or 10 years old. It's pretty unlikely, I think, that a guy in Memphis would have come all the way up to Chicago at age 9 to record these records were recorded in Chicago. So, yeah, to make that kind of a journey for a 9-year-old kid, plus it doesn't sound to me like Horton. I think it's Will Shade on those recordings. ¶¶

Unknown: 7:07

Thank you.

Tom Ball: 7:15

I know that Horton did know Will Shade in Memphis and was known to play informally a little bit in the parks and such with the Memphis Chug Band. But as to whether or not he was on that record, I can't imagine that he would have acquired the nickname Shaky at the age of eight, you know, because, I mean, his shakiness had to do with adult beverages more than anything else, you know. To me, I think it's Will Shade on those recordings.

Neil Warren: 7:40

I think you're right. I think that's, it's very likely he's playing on there. So what is down as, Probably his first recording is playing with little buddy Doyle and this is in 1939 when he would have been 21 years old. Do we know

Tom Ball: 8:09

anything about these little Buddy Doyle recordings? Again, the earliest editions of Godrich and Dixon discography said that that harmonica player was Hammy Nixon. Now, the edition that came out later, they changed that from Hammy Nixon to Walter Horton. Walter himself always told me that he was playing on those recordings and that he and Buddy Doyle were just, in his words, a couple of kids at the time. Buddy Doyle is kind of an enigmatic blues figure to begin with. He was a dwarf, actually, and he played on the street. I don't think he had much of a following, you know, in terms of record sales, but nevertheless, he did have a recording deal with Vocalian, and Horton, it appears, played on those records. To me, it sounds like Horton, although it doesn't have... a lot of the stuff that he came up with later, like in the 1950s. It sounds like a very young Horton, you know, to me.

Neil Warren: 9:06

Well, if he told you that it was him, Tom, then we'll definitely take his word for that. And so, yeah.

Tom Ball: 9:11

He also told me it was him on the Memphis Jug

Neil Warren: 9:14

Band records.

Tom Ball: 9:15

Oh, did he? He also told me that Robert Johnson, Lonnie Johnson, and Willie Johnson from the Howlin' Wolf Band were all brothers. There were the drops and the rudders. Had he been drinking at this point? No,

Mudcat: 9:28

he had a little distance from telling the truth, just the way he was.

Neil Warren: 9:34

Is this a feature? We had this with Sonny Boy II a few episodes ago, that he would definitely stretch the truth. Is it the same with Walter Horton, too, then?

Mudcat: 9:42

He used to say, if we saw a classic car driving by, he'd say, oh, I got one of those at home. you know, or any other fancy thing you would see. Every now and then he'd say, I've got one of those at home. Well, I went to his home. He didn't have anything like that.

Neil Warren: 9:57

I mean, just touching on that, because before we get further into his career, I think he probably didn't have lots of commercial success, did he? I mean, I get the impression reading about him that he didn't make lots of money through his life. I mean, you know, talking about him owning Classic Corsair, I mean, do we know much about that? Did he not earn that much money or...?

Madcat: 10:15

Correct. I don't think he ever made very much money.

Mudcat: 10:19

Yeah. And he didn't get front man's pay on a lot of the stuff that he did do anyway. He was a sideman even with Willie Dixon's band.

Neil Warren: 10:27

That's the key point. I mean, a lot of his career, he was a sideman. He did do some stuff under his own name, of course, which we'll get to. But yeah, a lot of his career, he was a sideman. So yeah, maybe that contributes as well. But yeah. But yeah, certainly beloved by the harmonica community. So, okay, so we got little buddy Doyle as a first recordings then. We'll go for that. 1939, a young Walter there. I've got then here that he didn't play that much through the 1940s due to health problems, or maybe he was just working, you know, doing day jobs and things. Do we know much about this period in the 1940s and what he was up to?

Tom Ball: 11:03

Well, I know that he... avoided the draft, so he was not involved in the war. I think he always said that he had bad vision, and that kept him out of the war. I've read speculation that he spent some time in a prison camp, but I don't know that for a fact. I know that he drove a taxi cab for a while. I believe he also drove a tractor for a while. But as far as I know, he wasn't recording until the

Neil Warren: 11:28

early 50s. And you talk about his vision, so let's touch on that. So his vision, you know, his eyes kind of aren't aligned, right? So I think he clearly did have some sort of issue with his vision, didn't he? Yeah. He definitely didn't like

Mudcat: 11:41

a flash photographer taking a picture of him. We can talk about that later, but I have a couple of stories about that.

Neil Warren: 11:48

So, OK, so you mentioned again there, Tom, that you think he's first recording. So I think we can say absolutely definitely that he did record in 1951 for Sun Records, which, of course, Elvis and Johnny Cash recorded for. So I think he beat them to it. He recorded with Sun Records before Elvis and Johnny Cash. And interestingly, I think what I've got down here, his first actual recording is Little Walter's Instrumental.

Unknown: 12:17

.

Tom Ball: 12:26

So he recorded under the name Little Walter. That record was never issued at the time. It was recorded by Sam Phillips and Sam Phillips sent it off to Chess to see if Chess would release it. But Chess obviously, seeing that the title was Little Walter's Boogie and they already had a guy named Little Walter, they never released it. And it came out later in a box set, you know, so I've heard it. It's a fun song. I like it. But it's understandable that they didn't release it at the time.

Neil Warren: 12:53

So what do we know about this Little Walter? So he called himself little walter before little walter or was he trying to claim some of little walter's fame and did we know what happened there i don't think little walter was

Tom Ball: 13:03

famous yet and this is before juke yeah you know little walter is a side man to muddy but a lot of muddy's recordings prior to 51 didn't have harmonica at all so uh it's speculative i mean maybe uh he didn't call himself that at all maybe sam phillips made up that title you know who knows

Neil Warren: 13:21

But, you know, it's a very interesting thing, though, that, you know, he is down as Little Walter on these recordings. And obviously, Little Walter came. And then I think he changed his name to Big Walter so he wasn't confused with, you know, with Little Walter. So, yeah, again, lost in the midst of time a little bit. But, yeah, really interesting little... It's like the Sonny Boys, right? We got the two Sonny Boys and we got the two Little Walters here. Yeah, it's a bizarre thing in the world of harmonica.

Madcat: 13:43

Besides being called Big Walter, he was called Shaky Walter. And he was also called Tall Walter, I've heard. I heard one of his neighbors, when I was visiting him, he said, oh, how you doing, tall Walter?

Mudcat: 13:56

He really didn't like being called shaky at all. That really bugged him.

Neil Warren: 14:01

Yeah, well, we're touching on these names a little bit, because you mentioned Shaker there, Mudcat. So he was known as Shaky Horn. He was also known as Mumbles as well. Yeah,

Tom Ball: 14:09

he didn't like that either.

Neil Warren: 14:10

Yeah, he didn't like that either, right? So is this because of the way he spoke, I guess, to Mumbles?

Mudcat: 14:15

That doesn't really compute for me. He didn't mumble. You could understand them.

Tom Ball: 14:20

I think that was a nickname that the Bihari brothers made up because those recordings came out on RPM records in L.A. They recorded it by Sam Phillips. But in those days, Sam Phillips didn't have his own label yet. So he would record all this stuff and then send it to RPM records or Chess Records or whoever he could get to actually bring it out. Those Horton recordings were sent off to L.A. to RPM records. And the Bihari brothers who owned RPM probably made up that name Mumbles themselves. I mean, who knows? But I know that Horton didn't like that at all.

Neil Warren: 14:51

And so you mentioned those records there, Tom. So I think you've just said, obviously, that the Little Walters boogie or instrumental, it's called Both, it wasn't released. So I think the first release was this set of recordings in 1951, which is available now under an album, which I really loved when I was younger. It's one of the ones, and it's the early Walter Horton, 1951. It's got the Cotton Patch Hot Foot, which is an amazing song. It's got Little Boy Blue, Jumpin' Blues, and one of my all-time favorite Walter Horton songs, Blues in the Morning, which is that great solo later on, which I absolutely adore. So that's the album you're talking about, is it Tom?

Tom Ball: 15:45

Well, I don't know, really. I just know the 78s. And they came out on either Modern or RPM. Both labels were owned by the same two brothers, the Bihari brothers. And I forget whether these came out on RPM or Modern, but they came out as Vi Mumbles. And then, of course, the thing that you're referring to is the reissue on LP and CD. Yeah, absolutely. It was reissued later on. Absolutely. Yeah.

Neil Warren: 16:16

so but I think they were his first well not his first recordings but his first releases yeah

Tom Ball: 16:28

sounds right

Neil Warren: 16:30

i mean do we know what did these make any uh sort of impacts at the time or you know did they start getting a name from these first recordings released or

Tom Ball: 16:38

well nobody would have known who he was if he's if i'll sit on the label was mumbles you know

Neil Warren: 16:43

so oh it literally didn't have his name on these 78 so wow yeah i can see why he didn't like that uh name there okay he was Didn't do much for his career, you know? No, no. But some fantastic playing on those early recordings. Really great. And again, he's probably 23 years old at this stage if he was born in 1918. So yeah, it took him a little while to get recorded compared to some of the others. Mm-hmm. And then going through the 50s, he then did a lot of Sideman work, which we touched on. He played with Jackie Boy in 1952. He played with Joe Hill Lewis in 1952 as well. He recorded with Johnny Shines, which he recorded the famous Evening Sun song.

Unknown: 17:35

¶¶

Madcat: 17:39

Oh, I know. I love the stuff with Johnny Shimes. Do either any of you know what year that was recorded?

Tom Ball: 17:50

53. Oh,

Madcat: 17:51

that's fabulous stuff. Brutal-hearted woman.

Speaker 08: 17:55

I'd have to rain the silver out of the moon.

Tom Ball: 18:09

That stuff came out on J-O-B. To my ears, that may well be the finest sounding Chicago blues harmonica that I've ever heard. I mean, I don't know what kind of amp or mic or what kind of techniques they were using. It just sounds amazing. And of course, Shines was brilliant in those days. Played great guitar, sang beautifully. But those two cuts, Brutal Hearted Woman and Evening Sun, those ones that came out with Shines on J-O-B, to me, that's the ultimate. There's something about those

Neil Warren: 18:39

early recordings, eh? And then he relocated to Chicago, I understand, in 1953. And that's when he replaced Junior Wells in Muddy Waters Band, although not for that long. So do we know... He's getting to your territory here, Mad Cat. Do we know what happened when he arrived in Chicago?

Madcat: 18:57

No, but I have heard from various people that he didn't last that long in Muddy Waters Band because he was... a bit unreliable and sometimes not show up for a gig.

Neil Warren: 19:11

He had an issue drinking, right? Like a lot of these old blues guys, right? So, you know, is that one of the issues, I guess?

Tom Ball: 19:19

Yeah. The story on that really is, according to Walter, Walter got pneumonia and called in sick and missed a couple of gigs. But according to Muddy, Walter was faking being sick. He was doing another gig that paid better on the other side of town. So Muddy fired him. So, you know, who knows the truth? But one way or another, he was only with Muddy for less than a year.

Neil Warren: 19:41

But I mean, of course, he did return with Muddy later on, which we'll get onto in a great successful way. But he did do some great cuts and two very famous Muddy Waters songs. So he did she's all right which is fantastic great driving song with a harmonica really driving it and also sad sad day which is a real kind of a kind of ballady anthem from muddy as well

Speaker 08: 20:01

well So

Neil Warren: 20:18

those two cuts he recorded in 1953 are, you know, real classic Muddy Waters songs with a harmonic of sure. So, yeah, he didn't last long in Muddy's band for reasons which aren't entirely clear. And then he did a few more Sideman gigs and he released an album with Walter Horton and his combo in 1954. So he did have his own band together at this stage. Do we know much about You know, was he starting to put his own bands together at this stage? You know, what was happening with her being a band leader?

Tom Ball: 20:50

He brought out some 78s on States records, like Hard-Hearted Woman, which was a great song. So he had his own combo, but as to whether or not they were working much, I really don't know. He was doing more sideman work than anything else. I mean, he was recording with Otis Rush. He was recording, you know, he had a long list of people he was playing as a sideman with. So he was, you know, quite well recorded, but not so much with his own bands. I mean, you know, he had the, well, the album on Argo came out a couple of years later, you know, which was a division of chess. But I think part of it was it, He seemed to be kind of shy of, of, of the limelight. You know, he, he didn't really want to be a front man so much. He, he wanted to play harmonica. He wanted to play music and he was great at it, but you know, he didn't sing all that much, nor did he really sing all that well comparatively, you know? And so, uh, It's hard to have a combo when you're instrumental, you know, unless you're playing jazz, for example.

Madcat: 22:02

One song you didn't mention yet, maybe you're about to, but Walking By Myself with Muddy Waters, just so amazing.

Neil Warren: 22:10

Yeah. Yeah. So in 1956, he played with Jimmy Rogers, who of course played with, you know, the Muddy Waters and Little Walter band as well. So he played with, these guys interchanged a lot, right, at this time. So he played with, what is, Considered by many people to be possibly the greatest harmonica solo, blues harmonica solo ever recorded, right? I mean, a lot of people will cite this song.

Unknown: 22:30

.

Neil Warren: 22:53

so i understand from what he did he was working sort of doing some painting and decorating and he basically kind of went to the studio rushed to the studio and then recorded this kind of you know kind of off the hoop without a lot of preparation and that's the story i've heard about it

Mudcat: 23:23

There was very little preparation. Jimmy Rogers used to tell me they didn't really rehearse, but then he would say, well, we rehearsed a song, but we didn't rehearse what we're going to play. Walter just lit it out, and how he got to do 24 bars instead of 12 is amazing, because he takes that solo from 112 to the next flawlessly. It's not like stop and get going again. It's all one giant, beautiful thing, you know?

Neil Warren: 23:53

exactly it's the 24 boys which really make that solo isn't it because he really launches into that second 12 boy yeah but it's interesting because when I was checking out and I didn't know this before I'd done my research here but during the same session they did record another song called If It Ain't Me Who You Thinking Of and he does play a pretty similar solo to Walking By Myself although it doesn't have the raw edginess and power of Walking By Myself but it is pretty similar solo

Mudcat: 24:23

It was also called, I think, Been Around the World, which is the beginning lyric on it. Been around the world, seen a lot of space. Walt used to sing that.

Neil Warren: 24:43

So it's interesting that he maybe kind of had this solo and, you know, worked out a little bit and he wanted to get it out there because he did sort of play it kind of twice. It's interesting, but it's definitely not as good and as kind of raw and powerful as Walking By Myself. That's the one which really, really cuts it. Yeah,

Tom Ball: 24:57

so. That one and, of course, Easy is another one worth talking about. His Tour de Force with Jimmy DeBerry for Sun Records.

Unknown: 25:06

.

Neil Warren: 25:17

So that was recorded in 1953. So that was three years before Walking By Myself. So again, that's another real signature tune of his. And again, a song that I really loved and I've kind of recorded a version of myself and I play it a lot. So I think like a lot of people, that's a real harmonica classic, right? Yeah, I think so. So carrying on through, he did, you know, it's more Sideman work through the 50s. He recorded a song called Southern Woman with Tommy Brown, which I think is, I wasn't that really familiar with this song, but I think it's a very well regarded track as well. Yeah, that's a fine piece of music.

Unknown: 26:11

Yeah.

Speaker 08: 26:12

And

Neil Warren: 26:14

then he choreographed with Sunnyland Slim as well. He choreographed with Sunnyland Slim quite a lot. He was a piano player, of course, so he did quite a lot of work with Sunnyland Slim, didn't he?

Tom Ball: 26:22

Well, I think those sessions came about because Willie Dixon, uh, was producing all those records for Cobra and, uh, the Sunnyland Slim came out on Cobra and then Horton, he had a 45 of his own that came out on Cobra and he also accompanied Otis Rush on Cobra. And I think he probably got these gigs because as, uh, as Mad Cat pointed out, Willie Dixon loved Walter and loved his playing. And I think that, uh, you know, given the opportunity to produce these guys over there at Eli's studio on the, on the West side, um, he just called horton as a sideman you know whenever he could and all that stuff is great of course i mean you can't beat it it's wonderful stuff so

Neil Warren: 27:14

So obviously, Mad Cat, we talked again before about you having lessons with Big Walter. Remind us what sort of year this was. Was it in the 60s, did you say?

Madcat: 27:22

Yeah, in 1966, I bought this record. Chicago the Blues Today blew my mind. There was a three-record set on volume three. Walter Horton's all over it.

Unknown: 27:37

Yeah.

Madcat: 27:49

So I was very much aware of Walter Horton starting in 1966 in the spring, and I joined this Unitarian youth group that decided they wanted to have a party and they wanted to get a Chicago blues band to play at the party. There was a record store in Chicago called Jazz Record Mart. They went down and and said, well, Bob Guester, we've gotten together, I forget how much it was, $200, and we want to get a blues band to play in our church basement. They said they wanted to get Junior Wells and Buddy Guy. And he said, well, that's not going to, $200 isn't going to get them. But we can send you Johnny Young and Big Walter Fortin. That's who we got to play, and that was October 1966. So I'd already heard them on record, but that's when I saw them first live was October 1966. At

Mudcat: 28:48

your church?

Madcat: 28:49

Yeah, it was in a church place. A youth group, a high school youth group. By the way, they had this skinny white surly-looking little drummer, way younger than Johnny Young and Walter Horton, who I decades later found out was Iggy Pop. Anyway, Johnny Young and Walter Horton and Iggy Pop did an amazing gig, and I was just mind-blown that I was hearing this harmonica, incredible harmonica right there. Blew my mind. And then I heard him tell someone else, some other high school kid said, well, do you give lessons? And he said, oh yeah, I give lessons. And I was like, oh, I could take a lesson from Walter Horton. And it took from October to the following April to get my nerve up to do that, you know, because I was 17 years old. But by the time I took lessons, I'd probably just turned 18. But what I heard him say way back then was, oh yeah, call Jazz Record Mart, call Bob Kester and he can get in touch with me. So I did call Bob Kester at Jazz Record Mart and he said, oh, well, if you want to get a hold of Walter Horton, he doesn't have a phone, but call Lincoln's Grocery Store because he hangs out there and just keep calling. So I'd call up, is Walter Horton there? No. Is Walter Horton there? No. Walter Horton there? No. Walter Horton? Oh, yeah, he's here. And we arranged to to come down and meet him on a Saturday afternoon. He wanted to be paid in advance, which I paid him in advance, because he wanted to buy a bottle of some alcoholic beverage. What's that?

Mudcat: 30:34

EO? Canadian? Probably. Those were his two favorites.

Madcat: 30:37

I think it was one of those, but I don't recall which. And then we walked down the street and up three flights of stairs to his apartment, and I took a lesson. Then I took one... about six months later, and then a third one about six months after that. What was the lesson like? It was like this. First of all, he never told me anything except for what harmonica he was using. That's the only thing. So it was like, he'd play... You do it. Now. And the whole lesson was, you do it, and now. Say, you do it. After a while, he didn't even say, you do it. He'd just point to me. By the third lesson, I'd been woodshedding like crazy, listening to him, playing along with elbows. You know, I could play way better than a year. And by then, it was way more complicated stuff, and I was a little closer to what he was doing, but a long way. So that was what the lessons were like. And it was always the same, calling Lincoln's grocery store. So we got him.

Neil Warren: 31:51

Well, it seems to work out well for you, my cat, you know.

Mudcat: 31:54

You know, folks used to come up to him when I was playing with him or hanging with him and say, how do you break in a harmonica? Like it was something you had to do to get it to bend and do all the stuff you wanted to do. And what he would do is light a camel cigarette, take a hit. and blow the smoke through the harp and say, now it's broke in. I don't know if he was putting them on or just kind of showing that there's nothing you need to do, really.

Neil Warren: 32:21

That's worse advice than putting it in a pint of beer. That would actually ruin the wood. The smoke just messed it up. So any children listening, that's definitely not how you break it on.

Madcat: 32:31

And one other just curious thing about those times, he had on the Chicago Blues Today album, There's this little picture of him and Charlie Musselwhite. There's like a doctor's bag between them. If you ever find the album, you can look at that. And it was this leather bag that opened up at the top. And in that bag, he just threw harmonicas. No box, no case at all. So then when he'd get to the gig, he'd just stir around with his hand and pull out. Harmonicus and set him on the top of his ampersand. And he had one mic at that time. It wasn't a bullet mic. It was the bottom of the line, sure, high impedance mic. It was like a plastic shell. And that's what he was using at that time. Years later, I see him again, the It seemed like a different mic every time. Yeah.

Mudcat: 33:23

You know, that's interesting that he would just throw all his harps in a bag like that because he did the most meticulous wrap-up of his mic and the cord to make it almost like a noose, you know, like perfectly wrapped. And it took, you know, a good 10 minutes at the end of every gig. No matter how cocked he was, he would spend the time to, you know, with his creaky, you know, long fingers and tighten this thing up in a perfect way. which is kind of not consistent with just checking all the harps and runs and money. Yeah, well,

Madcat: 33:55

at that time, it was just the mic and everything was in

Mudcat: 33:58

there. Maybe age or the cost of replacing stuff.

Neil Warren: 34:02

So going back then to the, a bit before then, so I've got here that certainly on this discography, he didn't seem to record anything between 1957 and 1963. Do we know anything about that? Did he have a lull? Was he not well? Was it just a lull in the blues maybe in that time before it got popular again? No idea. No idea. yeah so he seemed to go off the radar for that those six years again maybe but then in the in the 60s sort of getting he recorded again in 1963 with jesse fuller he did the song too many cooks so So then he started benefiting from this sort of, you know, the blues explosion in the 60s and, you know, it becoming popular again. And he went over to the American Folk Blues Festivals in Europe several times, I think in 65, 68, and in 70, and in 64 as well, actually. So he really benefited from those. And he toured Europe and the US, played with Willie Dex, an all-star band in the 60s. And he released the soul of the blues harmonica in 1964, which I think is his first one as a band leader. Didn't do that great. Yeah, it's got La Cucaracha on it.

Tom Ball: 35:38

I thought that was pretty cool.

Unknown: 35:50

Yeah.

Neil Warren: 35:56

That song, it comes out later, we'll get onto that later, but the later version I loved, I didn't realize that was the first one it came out on, yeah.

Tom Ball: 36:01

I think that was on the Argo label, which was a division of Chess. So the Chess Brothers got involved, they must have seen him play somewhere, or maybe they hired him, or maybe Willie Dixon recommended him. Yeah, I remember buying that record, and I liked it at the time. I have to admit, I haven't listened to it recently, but it certainly was influential at the time.

Madcat: 36:20

Yeah, it wasn't as bluesy as a lot of blues records that had... It had a Hammond organ, and it all sounded like roller skating music in some places. And then La Cucaracha was its own thing. And I enjoyed it. I thought it was great. And his playing showed that he could play in a lot of different styles.

Unknown: 36:41

Wow.

Speaker 08: 36:44

So,

Speaker 00: 36:51

yeah, as I say, he went across and

Neil Warren: 37:11

played in the American Folk Blues Festivals in Europe. a lot there's a studio session recording him playing Christine from the 1965 festival which is a great song and a great recording from him so yeah

Mudcat: 37:23

Christine was his daughter the song Christine that was named for his daughter

Speaker 08: 37:27

Christine yeah they're the sweetest girl I know oh she called me to walk from Chicago oh do they go And

Neil Warren: 37:46

also interesting, in 1965, on the Sonny Boy Williamson episode from a few episodes ago, we talk about how Sonny Boy recorded in this German journalist's house party. So Big Walter, I think, also recorded in the same house party, and they released it as an album called Solo Heart, where Big Walter's playing by himself, as was Sonny Boy. So I think they were at the same party. I don't know if you guys have heard that album, but I think it's the same party and the same sort of amateur recording which captured them both.

Tom Ball: 38:33

I haven't heard it, but I remember reading that on that album is the only time Big Walter was ever recorded playing or attempting to play a chromatic harp. From everything I've read, he really didn't know how to play it, and he wasn't aware they were recording him, and he certainly would have never thought the recording would have been released. But at any rate, I guess he was toying around with it.

Speaker 08: 38:55

¶¶ I

Tom Ball: 39:14

remember him saying, the chromatic will fry

Mudcat: 39:17

your brain. He did play chromatic, but as Kim used to accuse him, Kim Wilson, he didn't use the button. So they had a big, they used to play over the telephone long distance from Ronnie Earl's apartment where we lived in Cambridge and to Texas and we would listen in on a second phone and it always sounded great. They would each play something and try to, you know, bully each other in a friendly, but not always just friendly way. And when it got to the chromatic moments, Kim would accuse him of not using the button and Walter would say he did use the button, but it didn't sound like he did. Did he ever record using that chromatic? I don't know, but he, One night he played it on one song, and most of the time he didn't bring it with him. He didn't have one.

Tom Ball: 40:09

Yeah.

Neil Warren: 40:10

You've already talked, my cat, about the Chicago Blues today, which I think is a big album, right? And as you said, Charlie Musselwhite was on certainly some of these cuts. He was on the Rockin' My Boogie song, which is a very famous signature tune from Big Walter. This album, I think, is the three volumes had a lot of influence at the time, yeah, to a lot of harmonica players.

Madcat: 40:45

Yeah, because it was a three-record set and Junior Wells was on the first volume and James Cotton on the second volume and Walter Morton on the third. And I just wore those records out. I still hadn't.

Tom Ball: 40:59

Plus, there was some mighty good guitar playing on those records, too. Otis Rush was on, that was the first time I ever heard Otis Rush was on that record. Unbelievable.

Mudcat: 41:08

Oddly enough, Otis didn't like that sound of that record and complained because he had to plug directly into the board instead of using an amp. But to me, it sounds like Otis. It sounds great. The singing's fabulous. He really didn't like that. We couldn't believe it when he used to say that.

Neil Warren: 41:28

Yeah, so as I say, he's touring Europe quite a lot. He toured Europe with Big Mama Thornton, for example. He did an album recorded with her in London. played with Johnny Young on the R. Hooley label, and he also played with the original Fleetwood Mac, which there's a live album which was recorded in Chicago. And then he played with the Chicago Blues All-Stars, which was with Willie Dixon, Sunnyland Slim, Johnny Young. So he was getting, you know, quite some fame at this point, right? He was playing with some big names. And was this a successful period for him then? Well, he was

Madcat: 42:26

always

Neil Warren: 42:27

Dirk Tor, but he was a great

Madcat: 42:29

musician. He played with

Mudcat: 42:31

Johnny Winter too.

Madcat: 42:33

All right. On the first Johnny Winter record, he was the first major one that was on Columbia. He was on that.

Mudcat: 42:54

And Willie Dixon went on Columbia here too.

Neil Warren: 42:56

Yeah. And then in the early 70s now, getting on to this period, he recorded with Alligator, the record label, of course. And then this is the album he did with Carrie Bell and he recorded I Can't Keep Loving You in 1972, which again is a pretty revered album. I Can't Keep Loving You So we did have Carrie Bell playing a lot of chromatic harmonica on there, right? So that is something that, you know, Carrie Bell did play all the chromatic harmonica on that album, didn't he? Yeah. Carrie Bell was a sort of protege of his, wasn't he? Didn't sort of Big Walter sort of teach him and, you know, did he hang around with him a lot? I

Madcat: 43:45

get the impression that's the case, yeah.

Mudcat: 43:48

He said he did, but Little Walter couldn't teach anything. He slapped him, according to Cary. He slapped him in the face after he didn't play a lick like he showed him. That was basically all he got from Little Walter. Now, Big Walter was a little friendlier, but also was not much of an instructor. I don't know. But Cary Bell picked up a lot, and he made his own style out of everything he heard. He had a big sound.

Tom Ball: 44:14

I remember in the late 60s, Big Walter told me that he taught James... Well, on

Neil Warren: 44:25

that point, there's a great clip on the Hot Cottage album where Big Walter's talking and he basically says he taught Sonny Boy, the second, half of what he knows.

Speaker 07: 44:38

How would you say their style is different from yours? Well, it's not too much different in

Walter Horton: 44:51

the style because I can play them all.

Speaker 07: 44:53

Yeah,

Walter Horton: 44:53

right.

Speaker 07: 44:54

See?

Walter Horton: 44:55

And I told him half of what he know on harmonica. That's right. Is that right? Yeah. The styles that he's playing, it was mine. So once he gets this style, I find me another. I don't want to play like nobody else.

Neil Warren: 45:15

You know? I want to play like me. So, you know, he definitely made that claim, right? And the others. But we don't know how true that is. I mean, if we're thinking about the ages, I mean, I did the Sonny Boy Williamson episode a few episodes ago, and we talked about him being born probably in 1912, although again, it was maybe 1908 as well. But yeah, 1912 is the sort of year we were probably going for. And then 1918, we're talking about Big Walter here. So yeah, Sonny Boy probably was a good few years older than Big Walter.

Mudcat: 45:48

And the thing is that they had that connection in Memphis, West Helena, and down there before the Chicago period of time. And Cotton, too. They were very familiar with each other coming up.

Neil Warren: 46:00

Yeah, so they probably did hang out together and did do some playing together, yeah. Yeah, so I mentioned the Hot Cottage album. That's an album I really liked. There's some great tracks on that album. I don't know if you guys are familiar with it, but it's the one where he does They Call Me Big Walter, and he talks about Memphis Charlie, Charlie Musselwhite, and that, about him playing with him.

Speaker 08: 46:23

Memphis Charlie, don't you know

Walter Horton: 46:40

I'm so sorry I took it

Speaker 08: 46:45

all

Walter Horton: 46:46

upon to

Speaker 08: 46:46

myself Yes, I felt so sorry I took it all upon to myself He

Neil Warren: 47:21

also does Sugar Mama, which is a solo version of a song I really love. So that's a really good album, that Hot Cottage one.

Speaker 08: 47:27

Yeah.

Neil Warren: 47:45

And then he did In 72 and Off You Can't Refuse, which was a double-sided album with Paul Butterfield on the other side. I mean, I don't know if they collaborated at all. Do you know if they just put it together separately? I

Mudcat: 47:58

think those are separate sessions.

Neil Warren: 48:00

Yeah, I think they are separate. They're not playing together, but yeah, I think they just sort of put them together, I guess, two harmonica players together, right, on each side of the

Speaker 08: 48:08

album. Every time we're going to rock and roll all night long

Neil Warren: 48:14

getting later in his career well you played with something like slim again numerous times through the uh through the 70s uh and then he also started playing with uh johnny nicholas towards the end of his career. And Mudcat will bring you in. That was around your time. You didn't play with Johnny Nicholas's band, did you, Mudcat?

Mudcat: 48:42

I didn't play in his band. I played with him quite a bit because he was in my area here in Cambridge, Massachusetts before he moved to Texas.

Neil Warren: 48:50

But you weren't part of those recordings with Big Walter?

Mudcat: 48:54

No, I think it was Sarah Brown played bass on those, I think.

Neil Warren: 48:57

And

Madcat: 48:57

by the way, Sarah Brown and Johnny Nicholas played Both lived in Ann Arbor, and I knew them before they moved to Texas.

Mudcat: 49:06

They were on the Ann Arbor Blues Festival as the Boogie Brothers, weren't they?

Neil Warren: 49:10

Correct. Johnny Nicholas recorded a few albums with him towards the end of his life. So he did the Fine Cuts album, which, again, for me, is one of my favorites. It was very late in Big Walter's career, only three years before he died. but for me, a fantastic album. It's got, again, a lot of variety. You know, we're talking about the solo blues harmonica didn't have all just straight blues on, so it's got like a caraccia, and the version that I really love is on that album. And it's got Don't Get Around Much Anymore, which is, of course, a Duke Ellington jazz song, which he does a great bluesy harmonica version of.

Unknown: 49:42

.

Neil Warren: 50:01

So there's some really great songs on that album, which is one of my favorites for sure. Yeah, it's a great record. Everybody's fishing.

Mudcat: 50:26

He did Don't Get Around Much Live quite a bit. He did that. He did the cucaracha. He did those songs. That was his... part of his repertoire.

Neil Warren: 50:35

He played with Johnny Nichols' band here on that album. The

Mudcat: 50:40

drummer wasn't, I think, wasn't Terry Bingham, his regular drummer. I think it was Gross.

Madcat: 50:46

Yeah, it's Tino Gross. Martino from Detroit, maybe.

Neil Warren: 50:50

Yeah, he lived in Ann Arbor too for a while and then moved to Texas. Ann Arbor's a blues mecca, my cat. Yeah, it was for a while. So possibly the highlight of his career in some ways, we mentioned Muddy Waters earlier on that was in his band for probably about a year but in 1978 he recorded on the album i'm ready which was a grammy winning album uh so johnny winter was on this album um and also was jerry portnoy was on it so we've got two harmonicas and there's a fantastic harmonica so you know song for harmonica i'm ready where big wall and jerry portnoy are playing harmonica fantastic song again so

Madcat: 51:42

I want to just come back to John Nicholas. He told me a story, which I think is amazing, so I'm going to share it with you all. John Nicholas was in Ann Arbor, and he and Walter Horton were going to drive to Boston. And at the time, it was easier to go through Canada. It just cut off an hour if you drove through Canada. Now you have to show a passport and everything. It's not easier. But anyway, at the time, they were going to Canada. And Detroit, there's a bridge over the Detroit River, but there's also a tunnel under the Detroit River. And they were taking the tunnel. And the tunnel has this looping ramp that goes down and then under the river and then up on the other side. And at the entrance of this tunnel, there's a sign that says, no firearms allowed in Canada. And John Nicholas says to Walter, ha, no firearms allowed in Canada. That won't affect us any. And Walter Horton says, well, I got a gun. They're already in the tunnel. And so John says to Walter, don't mention anything about the gun when we get to the customs. Don't say you have a gun or that you even thought of having nothing. Don't even mention the gun. And they went through customs and didn't have any problem. And they had to come through American customs again. And no problem. But John said, how come you brought a gun? He said, well, I've never been to Boston before.

Neil Warren: 53:16

And then another really significant thing he did is that he appeared in the Blues Brothers movie, the first Blues Brothers movie, where he's playing with John Lee Hooker's band with the sort of busking on Maxwell Street, which he did do when he was in the 50s, right, probably. So it's great we can see him playing, you know, in that Blues Brothers movie.

Mudcat: 53:36

That's not him playing, though. That's what I hear. It's not him playing. It's him. He was overdubbed.

Madcat: 53:42

Yeah, it's him on screen, but someone else is playing.

Neil Warren: 53:46

Oh, really? I didn't know that. Right.

Madcat: 53:48

I just found out about it from reading Jerry Portnoy's book, Dancing with Muddy.

Tom Ball: 53:53

Does it say in there who was actually doing the playing? It was Joe

Mudcat: 53:57

Bursar. Joe Bursar. I met him in Chicago. He was a tough player. And he was a student of Big Walter's. Interesting. So do we know why they didn't use Big Walter playing? Is it? He was erratic. They had to do more than one take. He couldn't start when they needed to start, and I think they just thought it'd be simpler. It was going to be Muddy Waters Band, but he

Madcat: 54:20

was sick that day, so they got Muddy Waters Band.

Mudcat: 54:22

Neil, are you familiar with the film that they made but never released here in Providence, Rhode Island, and with a clip from Ronnie Earl's apartment, an interview, and a live clip? It's on YouTube, if

Walter Horton: 54:36

you look. Do I make my sound? I mix my sound with my hand. Any tone that I want to get, I make it with my hand.

Speaker 08: 54:48

At

Mudcat: 54:56

that point, he also didn't want to be filmed, you know, because of the camera thing. So that was another thing. He didn't like... cameras he really didn't want his picture taken and even though he was in the role of blues brothers to make a you know a clip a portion of that was supposed to be filmed when he saw the cameras he uh he got uh a little out of it and couldn't really cooperate with the uh you know take three take two you know all that stuff he just didn't like cameras

Neil Warren: 55:27

Any particular reason, or is it to do with his eyes or something? Was that something he didn't like? There was a

Mudcat: 55:33

couple of reasons. One was that he... kind of did believe in that thing where when the camera captures your image, it captures your soul. The other thing was he had blood in one eye and it was kind of murky. But he told me one time, too, that if his picture was taken and he was playing, like, say, with us in Boston or down in New York, and his picture came out either promoting or a review of the gig, then the Chicago Musicians Union would see that he's playing and he would be more penalized than he had already been. He already... owed fines, and they had reduced his... He signed up for it, paid the dues, and they canceled his dues and made him have to pay an extra five years. He was so far behind, he couldn't catch up anyway. But they were tough. The Chicago local of the AFM, they didn't fool around. I'd forgotten all about

Madcat: 56:28

this, but it was Walter Horton who took me down to the Chicago... union and got me signed up as a union member. But then I moved to Michigan right after that, so I didn't have to deal with the Chicago Union very much.

Mudcat: 56:44

But that's the reason he didn't want his photo shown. I don't know if that's really why he was against cameras, though.

Neil Warren: 56:50

Now, again, showing that he didn't do that well financially as well, right, which is a great shame considering the influence he's had on so many harmonica players. Stuff being a harmonica player, eh? getting on to you that now then mudcat so he as i mentioned earlier on he did some what two live shows with you was it that are released as the gig at the knickerbocker so

Mudcat: 57:27

But that was a series of two weeks of performances with three bands, Jimmy Rogers, J.B. Hutto, and Big Walter. We went from city to city, and they just happened to record, Ron Bartolucci of Barron Records recorded that last gig of the tour at the Knickerbocker in Westerly, Rhode Island. And they didn't pay us for that night. As the tour went on, they had less and less money, so that night we got mess screwed on the money. the band did, and they taped it and sold the tape to JSP, and he didn't pay us. So Walter, I know he got screwed on that, because I met John Stedman a couple years later playing in England, and he said, well, I know I didn't treat you right, but I'm going to send you some CDs that you can sell. They'll be at your place when you get home, and just give half the money to Walter and Fanny, his wife. And there was no records there when we got home, and there never was. And he even sent a a letter saying, oh, I forgot, but I'm going to give you, I think it was 32 cents for every record I sell. I still have that letter, but he never paid us a nickel. So Walter got screwed even at that late stage of his

Neil Warren: 58:44

career. Right. So obviously you're playing bass. What was it like playing bass with Big Walter?

Mudcat: 58:51

Oh, it was a thrill. It was one of the greatest thrills I ever had in music. And, uh, One thing he did was he would indicate sometimes, you know, a signal to the band, or he'd say, I remember him at the speakeasy in Cambridge one time saying, now, on this next one, I want you to give me half a beat, because if you give me a whole beat, you're going to deaden me. And, you know, you just had to decipher what that meant, you

Speaker 08: 59:16

know?

Mudcat: 59:16

Yeah. He was charming. He was an old goat. We call him the old goat sometimes, but he was charming. He could be real miserable calling people a big dummy. He was ornery, but he was delightful, really, in my mind, and a magnificent player. One other thing I can tell you is... He played one show halfway down the seating area of the club, and it was kind of dark, too. He had a long cord for his mic, and he played halfway down at the speakeasy in Cambridge because Anderson, who wrote a book about being Robert Johnson's sister, he was her brother. Do you know that book? that came out in 2020. Well, in 1979, she was in the audience, and Walter knew her from the Memphis days or even maybe Horn Lake days, I don't know. So he saw her in the audience because her family lived in Boston, and he went to her table and played the gig from her table, which was halfway down in the club in the dark. And Ronnie Earl at one point even got on the mic and Walter, I can't see you. And he goes, as long as you can hear me, it's okay. And he did everything from, you know, count off stuff. And he was great. He loved Dan and Anderson. her book's interesting too about robert johnson

Neil Warren: 1:00:39

so you mentioned there that he was asking you to play half a beat and so was he good as sort of being a kind of you know leading the band you know was he basically

Mudcat: 1:00:48

uh well ronnie pretty much was the band leader in that foursome anyway so yeah i played with him with ted harvey on drums and also with uh ola dixon you know it basically just start the song there's no real discussion of what we're going to play tonight or you figure out the key quick and jump in as a bass player that's all you can do

Neil Warren: 1:01:08

but on the album he does play some great solos it is a really good album he captures him live great and you know he does some really long solos It is, and you'd definitely be proud of that album. It's an excellent live album.

Mudcat: 1:01:39

A lot of people like it. She thought he was at the airport. She doesn't know. Then the next day he shows up and he's all bloody. Couldn't believe they even let him on the plane. And we had to take him to the ER and he'd gotten beaten up. We had to miss a couple of gigs because he had to be bandaged up at the hospital. And the thing that happened was, as he told me, is when he ever came back from Europe or some trip to California, they knew he had cash. And his son would beat him up and steal his money. So sometimes he wouldn't even leave the airport or come home. He would just kind of hang out. And that's why people would say, oh, he's out there drinking with the money he earned on the gig. Well, he couldn't bring the money home because it would have been ripped off from him. And poor Fanny admitted that she, you know, she didn't get the money, his wife, but it was a complicated situation, you know. Even when he died, we went out there and they wouldn't let us see the body, especially her. We even said, just let her. They wouldn't because he was beat up. The condition wasn't, he wasn't fixed up yet, you know. He lived kind of in a violent world out there on 35th Street. One time I was visiting Jimmy Rogers and I said, okay, I mean, I'm sorry, I was visiting Ted Harvey and I told him I was going to visit Jimmy Rogers and see Walter. And Jimmy Rogers said, don't you, don't move. Just wait, I'll come get you. And he picked me up in his station wagon. He said, I don't want you walking around out here on the south side, which in daytime I felt kind of safe, you know. But even Jimmy Rogers was afraid for me to go to Walter's house by myself walking around. Well, it wasn't a house, it was his apartment.

Neil Warren: 1:03:48

So talking about, you know, his character, obviously we touched on him being a sad man and probably not having that charisma to be the band leader, but I think he was known for being, you know, sort of quiet and humble and not quite shy, and that sort of let his playing do his talking for him. Is that what he was like, you know?

Mudcat: 1:04:03

Yes, he was taciturn, I think the word is. He didn't say much. And he didn't like everybody either, or he acted like he didn't. He either liked you or didn't like you, and there was no reason one way or the other. He was kind of an ornery guy, but he was quiet. He did let his clan do the talk. Sometimes he didn't feel like playing, and he would just, mm-mm. He would refuse us. to do like a pitcher shaking off a catcher in baseball or something. You know, like, let's do this, Walter. No, mm-mm, mm-mm. Or sometimes he would say, I'm going to do this, and he'd do Blueberry Hill or Christine or some beautiful thing, you know, that nobody was expecting that particular night, you know. The guy was full of music, you know.

Neil Warren: 1:04:43

We talked a bit about his style, you know. Let's touch on that a little bit. And I think, you know, he's got obviously great, fantastic big tone, you know, very smooth, very sort of soul. full you know very masterful dynamics i mean anything else you want to say um tom or mad cat about his harmonica style yeah he

Tom Ball: 1:05:00

played with the song whereas little walter played across the melody big big walter played with the melody you know it was just it was a difference they were both you know very impressive in their own way but they were they were quite different i think structurally

Mudcat: 1:05:15

well you had to watch because he didn't always just do 12 bars perfectly four beats to a measure. Sometimes he would add an extra one right before he sang or play a lick. And sometimes you'd get a little caught, you know, not making the change, making it where he wasn't ready to make it.

Neil Warren: 1:05:31

So Tom, obviously you wrote the source book, you know, as we mentioned of Little Walter and Big Walter licks. I mean, did you do that a direct comparison between the two when you wrote that? But, you know, did that give you that sort of insight or?

Tom Ball: 1:05:41

No, I really wasn't interested in going there at all. I just, a lot of people were asking me, hey, how technically did either Walter, you know, play a certain lick? I mean, what notes are they? What holes are they? What kind of bends are involved here? So, you know, I just figured I'd map it out in that very simple tablature, the kind of tablature you get when you buy your first harmonica and you open it up and there's a little piece of paper in there that teaches you how to play Oh Susanna and songs like that, you know, with the little arrows. So basically it was just how to play certain licks that these guys were doing. I didn't have any complete songs, just licks all the way through. And really, I wasn't as concerned with trying to teach the technique because both Little Walter and Big Walter were tongue blockers and they hit individual notes by blocking out you know playing three notes at a time but using the tongue to block out two notes and frankly I'm a pucker player when I want to hit a single note so I'm really not the right guy to teach the individual techniques that these guys use it wasn't about that it was just about how to play the lines and what holes were involved and what kind of bends were involved and I did discuss both of their styles but I didn't try to compare pair them with each other. They're both too different.

Neil Warren: 1:06:53

You mentioned his singing a few times. Obviously he wasn't really a band leader, but he did lead some groups. So his singing, I mean, what do you think about his singing? I think generally it's pretty good.

Speaker 08: 1:07:04

Oh, you don't do nothing Darling love

Neil Warren: 1:07:19

any thoughts on his singing? I mean, he sang with you, Mudcat, right, when he was doing the shows?

Mudcat: 1:07:24

Yeah, the greatest thing about it was that he'd sing through the harp mic and get that really crunched-up sound of a vocalist, like,

Speaker 08: 1:07:32

oh, she's a hard-hearted

Mudcat: 1:07:33

woman! You know, like, and it was just, I mean, it's emotionally powerful, you

Speaker 08: 1:07:44

know? Oh, you know, whoa! I

Mudcat: 1:07:54

mean, his actual voice was not everybody's cup of tea, but I'll tell you what, when he sang, I mean, it was pretty much everybody felt it.

Neil Warren: 1:08:02

So there's another great resource. As ever, Bob Corritore has got a photo gallery and his photo galleries are amazing. I'm sure you guys are familiar with them. He's got a great photo gallery of Big Walter. I'll put a link on to the podcast page as ever. And yeah, you really get a great insight through his career and who he played with and stuff. So yeah, check that out for sure as well. So we'll get into the section now, which is always a difficult one. We're talking about your sort of favourite songs of Big Walter's. So we've obviously mentioned a few, but any you might pick out, I'll go through each of you and see any you've got to pick out. Maybe one of the big well-known ones and then maybe one which isn't so well-known. So I'll start with you, Mad Cat. Well, the stuff he

Madcat: 1:08:42

recorded with Johnny Shines at Sun Studios is just amazing.

Unknown: 1:08:49

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