Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

Sugar Blue interview

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Sugar Blue has certainly pushed the boundaries of the harmonica, with his rapid fire licks, lots of high end runs and gorgeous tone. It was perhaps his early jazz influences that shaped his distinctive sound, although there is no doubt that he has paid homage to the harmonica greats, spending time with some of the classic players. 
As well as numerous solo albums, Sugar has recorded with many illustrious names, including the Rolling Stones, Willie Dixon and Frank Zappa, to name but a few. 
He has two Grammy awards and has recently released his new album, Colors.


Select the Chapter Markers tab above to select different sections of the podcast (website version only).

Links:
Sugar Blue's website:
https://www.sugar-blue.com/

YouTube:

Pontiac from Crossroads album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo_4V2oQkJQ

From Paris to Chicago album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erR3ykdWjUs&list=PLKy7ZszBRofeRhtxfOq9AnNJJE-oEkPzR

With Louisiana Red:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNJvfPF_S1w

Willie Dixon Hidden Charms album: Blues You Can’t Lose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_PudHiZWnI&list=PLvxWibFr0wiK2EYwsSfV3C2bg_i5GDNvL

Sugar Blue Unplugged:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtNgTBZx2HY


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

Support the show

SPEAKER_00:

Sugar Blue joins me on episode 25. First off, please excuse the background noise on Sugar's side, but it's a great interview nonetheless. Sugar Blue has pushed the boundaries of the harmonica, with his rapid-fire licks, lots of high-end runs and gorgeous tone. It was perhaps his early jazz influences that shaped his distinctive sound, although he has certainly paid homage to the harmonica greats, spending time with some of the classic players. As well as numerous solo albums, Sugar has recorded with many illustrious names, including the Rolling Stones, Willie Dixon and Frank Zappa. He has two Grammy Awards and has recently released his new album, Colors. A word to my sponsor again, thanks to the Lone Wolf Blues Company, makers of effects pedals, microphones and more, designed for harmonica. Remember, when you want control over your tone, you want Lone Wolf. Hello, Sugar Blue, and welcome to the podcast. Oh, hello, Neil. How are you? I'm great, thank you. Thanks so much for joining me today and taking the time. Appreciate it. We can start off with your name, Sugar Blue, your real name, James or Jimmy Whitting. Where did the name Sugar Blue come from?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, there was an old track. Somebody threw a box of 78 records out of a window. And in it, there was a box. There was a record by Sidney Bechet with a tune called the Sugar Blues on it. And all of the records broke except that one. And I said, okay. I had been looking for a name for a while, you know, like there was Sonny Boy Williamson, Muddy Waters, Junior Wells. And I had been looking for a name and I said, well, this is it. Serendipity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a good name. Works well, as you say. Sugar Blue works very well. So you were raised in Harlem in New York and your mother was a singer and dancer at the Apollo Theater. So you definitely had that sort of background in the entertainment industry.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, man, you know, I grew up around musicians and music from the time that I can remember.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so did you start performing at an early age? And, you know, what sort of involvement did you have, you know, the sort of entertainers back then?

SPEAKER_02:

No, well, I wanted to be a singer from the time that I could remember. But my mother said I sounded like a horse. She said, no, you'll never sing. And so I believed her for a while. I didn't really start trying to play music until I was about 12 or 13 years old. I got a saxophone when I was in grade school and I started trying to play that. Then there was a violin and a flute. I played the sax for a while and I really got into it. it but my mom was like oh no you can't practice that thing in the house so that was the end of the saxophone and I was heartbroken and my godmother bought me a harmonica

SPEAKER_00:

and we've been friends ever since course you are a singer now and have been for quite some time so did you carry on singing then or did you return back to that when you got a bit older

SPEAKER_02:

I got into the harmonica and I played I played the harmonica I didn't sing I didn't sing for years actually I didn't sing until I got into a band I had a gig for General Electric and we had an after work band and nobody would sing and so everybody said well you're I was like, okay, well, why not?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, now, darling, please come home

SPEAKER_02:

I'm all alone and I don't know why I know she cried

SPEAKER_01:

And I felt so bad inside And I know I lied

SPEAKER_02:

We wrote two songs. I'm so glad. And we did those two songs for about a half an hour before the club owner tossed us out on our ears. But that was the beginning of my singing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and great. And it's very effective too. You know, you've got quite a high voice, hasn't it? It really complements the harmonica playing really well, I think. So yeah, a good move for you to do the singing. So again, as you started out in your early life, you're around your mother and all the performers. I believe you met Billie Holiday during this time.

SPEAKER_02:

Billie was a good friend of my mom's. When I was born, Billy had a gig at the Apollo Theater, and she stopped by the house. According to my mother, okay, see, I was a baby. I was an infant at this time. She told me that Billy was wearing her beautiful silk dress that she was going to perform in, and she wanted to hold the baby. And I had just finished having my pablum. And so she held me, and she patted me on the back and of course I deposited my pablum on her dress and she normally wore her gardenias, corsage, in her hair. There's a photo of her with it. She's wearing it above her left breast and that's where I deposited the pablum.

SPEAKER_00:

Brilliant. Well, you must have been destined for great things after doing that to Billie Holiday.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey, man, you know, I have no memory of it. I only know what my mom told me.

SPEAKER_00:

So obviously Billie Holiday is a very famous female jazz singer. So you were interested in jazz early on, weren't you? I believe Lester Young was one of your early favorites.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. Are you kidding? I remember the first time that I really remember being in love with the music was a song called PC Blues. I bugged my mom. Mom, what is that? What is that? What is she saying? It's the blues, boy. Now leave me alone. She was trying to cook. And I fell in love with the blues. You know, the big band kind of jazzy kind of blues. You know, I didn't get into Chicago, Chicago blues and Delta blues for years. You know, I didn't know about that stuff. I just knew about the big band stuff. You know, Duke Ellington, Count Basie.

SPEAKER_00:

So does that mean when you were starting out in harmonica, you were trying to emulate saxophone players?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I was trying to emulate saxophone players. I was also trying to emulate violin players. And we used to watch the cowboy shows on television, and I would play along with those because there was a lot of harmonica in that stuff. I had an ear for jazz since I was little because there was so much of it being played around me. When I did get into Chicago blues and Delta blues, I just took what I had been hearing with me into that music.

SPEAKER_00:

And, you know, probably influenced your style, as we'll get on to shortly, because you probably got quite a unique sound as a harmonica player. As you said, though, you did get into, you know, obviously playing along with the blues greats. But first of all, I think you were interested in Stevie Wonder and even Bob Dylan you were playing along to as your sort of first harmonica influence.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. You know, Steve, I mean, well, you know, it's like, that's the kind of stuff that you heard on the radio, you know. And I was very much into practically anybody that was playing the harmonica. There's no place to learn it except on records and on the radio.

SPEAKER_00:

And of course, then you got into the blues greats Little Walter and Sonny Boy Williams in the second. So any particular songs you remember from back then that really grabbed you about playing the Chicago blues styles?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, well, I mean, Juke, of course, and Help Me, and Big Walter, Hard-Hearted Woman. I still love that tune.

UNKNOWN:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I like the fluid guys, you know, the cats that play with a very fluid kind of sound, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00:

And then I think you spent some time, didn't you, with some of the greats, you know, with Big Walter, Junior Wells and James Cotton. Did you study with those guys or you hung out with them and played with them?

SPEAKER_02:

I went to the gigs, and I hung out with them. I listened to them play. I listened to them talk. I ate and drank with them. I mean, you know, for me, that was Boone's University, man. You know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember early in my musical life, I was playing with a guy named Larry Johnson. And Larry Johnson, he was a great blues guitar player and vocalist in Piedmont style He told me, you know, listening to the records is great, man, but you've got to live this music. You've got to know the people that played it. You've got to try and sit down, talk and commiserate with these people or otherwise you'll never really get it. You know, it's like you can listen to the records, but there's something that you're going to miss if you don't have the association with the people that it came from. And I think he was very right about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so were those guys, you know, some of the guys we mentioned there, Junior Wells, were they very welcoming then? You were quite happy. I presume you were quite a young guy then, you know, hanging out with them. Was there a few people doing that?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I was always right up front under their eyes, you know. It was like at some point it was, you know, and I would introduce myself and hang out and listen and be very studious about the whole thing. And the old-timers, man, they noticed that kind of And they appreciate it because there were very few young cats that were really trying to take lessons, trying to understand, trying to appreciate and celebrate their music. And so they appreciated that.

SPEAKER_00:

Fantastic. Yeah, so a great place to learn. So if we move on a bit to your recording career now, so a great long recording career you've had. So I think you made your first recording, is it right, with Brownie McGee in 1975?

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, the first recording I ever did was with Victoria Smith. And that was, oh, 1970, I don't know, 73, 74. Yeah, because Victoria heard us busking on the street in the West Village in New York City, and she said, hey, I want to record you. And I was like, okay, why not? And she was great.

SPEAKER_00:

She actually became our blues fairy godmother. And do you know what recording that was with Victoria Spivey? Well, it's a track

SPEAKER_02:

that's on the label. It's called Sugar Really Has the blues on Spivy Records.

SPEAKER_00:

Brilliant yeah so so yeah so you recorded with Victoria but then you did record with Brownie McGee in 1975. Yeah I

SPEAKER_02:

recorded with Brownie I recorded with

SPEAKER_00:

Louisiana Red, Johnny Shines. Yeah so when you recorded with Brownie were you standing in for Sonny Terry at that point?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yes actually Sonny Terry had passed away and I was always at the concerts to see Sonny Terry and Brownie and I was always there you know studying the music and I Brownie let me sit in at some point, and he liked the way I played. And so when Sonny passed and he was in the studio, he got in touch with me, and the rest is music history, you know. We recorded a song called On a Rainy Day, which is one of Brownie's, for me, one of Brownie's most beautiful songs.

SPEAKER_01:

¶¶¶¶

SPEAKER_02:

I had one small, one small cup of tea. You know,

SPEAKER_01:

she just walked out of my life. Left those old old town dirty.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, you know, your style is quite different than Sonny Terry's, certainly later, but listening to some of your earlier recordings, you mentioned playing with Johnny Shines, you know, you did have, you know, more, you know, acoustic-y, is that a style you developed earlier on, do you think, listening to and playing along with Sonny Terry?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I really didn't have much of a Sonny Terry sound. I mean, I loved what he did, but I didn't think that anybody could really do that stuff like Sonny could. And so I didn't really try and do that. I was looking for a more lyrical way of playing the harmonica than that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and certainly, you know, listening to some of your early recordings, your style is in there early on, isn't it? We'll talk about your style a little bit more later, but that is in quite early, isn't it? So is that a style you developed quite early on and stuck with?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, man. I used to sit around and listen to B.B. King, right? And try to imitate what he was doing. He's such a lyrical and melodic player, you

SPEAKER_00:

know? And you mentioned Louisiana Red there, so you toured with Louisiana Red for a few years in the late 70s uh you know you toured around i know you came to london and played in the in the hundred club in london so you toured around with him for a few years

SPEAKER_02:

oh yeah that was we had some wild times back then yes indeedy the 1970s were the were were really great they were really great i miss i miss old red he was he was great so

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I think in 1977, you moved to Paris, sort of after talking to Memphis Slim, who was based over in Europe as well. So you came over to Europe.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I had met Slim at a place called Art Deliverance Village Gate in the West Village. I came in, I sat in with him. He liked the way I played. And I said, wow, you know, what do you think if I went to Paris and played? Do you think I could make it over there? He said, well, son, you have to come and see. You have to find out for yourself. yourself and so about i don't know about two or three months later i was on a plane man

SPEAKER_00:

excellent and so what was the blues scene like in the in paris around that time

SPEAKER_02:

oh well around that time there was memphis slim that was pretty much it i mean there was there was slim there were a few there were a few uh french guys around playing the blues but when it came down to the true tradition there was memphis slim and i remember uh Champion Jack Dupree came through, and I met and hung out with him. I loved it. I loved the way he played the blues. Loved his attitude. He was a magic guy, this guy. But that was really just about it, you know? Now and then, I remember George Harmonica Smith came through. He passed through on tour. As far as local in Paris, it was Slim. That was it.

SPEAKER_00:

Were you playing with Memphis Slim then? Is that when you first went to Europe?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I played with Slim. he didn't really give me any play at all for about a year so i was busking in the subways and on the streets of paris with uh with a girlfriend of mine at the time who played bass and a friend of mine that came over from new york who was playing guitar so we had our little three piece and we were playing through pig nose amplifiers in the metro and uh on the streets of paris

SPEAKER_00:

this is it right this is where mick jagger saw you playing and that's where he first discovered you

SPEAKER_02:

he Yeah, indeed. I think Keith had heard me on a record with Louisiana Red. And they came by a club that we were playing in called La Vieux Gris. That's sort of where I became aware that they knew who I was. I don't know. They may have seen me somewhere else, but that was when I became aware that they

SPEAKER_00:

knew who I was. Well, so fantastic. And then you became Rolling Stone's harmonica player for, well, you recorded on three other albums. And of course, very famously, the song Miss You, which you play the very... Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

there were a couple of other nice tunes that I really liked. Well, the monster hit was Moose You. I think I did something, played on Send It To Me or something like that. And a blues tune that we sort of came up with together because I was practicing in one of the studios, just doing some chords, and it ended up on the record under the name of Dive In The Hole, which I really liked. I really like that tune because there's some really wicked harp playing on there.

SPEAKER_00:

So what was it like then? You were touring with Rolling Stones.

SPEAKER_02:

I did a couple of sit-ins with them. I guess just blowing some stuff with them. Once we did something at Wembley Stadium. And then I did some stuff with them in the States in Chicago and around there. It was fun. And what was really fantastic about it, after I had done that... I got the opportunity to do my own record because up until that time, I had been trying to get somebody to record me and nobody would. And after I did that, all of a sudden, I was a hot commodity.

SPEAKER_00:

So obviously Mick Jagger is known to play some harmonica, not to your standard, of course. So did you ever have a sort of harmonica duet with Mick Jagger on stage or any recordings at all of that?

SPEAKER_02:

No, in the studio. We traded back and forth. We traded some licks back and forth you know he was he was big time into little walter you know like hey do you know this song by little walter do you know this one do you know that one and you know i was like oh yeah i know that one yeah we play some riffs from that from one of his tunes or and so forth yeah so i mean but we never recorded together no no

SPEAKER_00:

so well brilliant though i mean obviously great that he's a fan of the harmonica and you know got you on and i mean it must be great playing you know with one of the most successful rock bands you know in all time Oh man, you know, it was

SPEAKER_02:

like, I don't know, it was, it was magical, you know, it was like, okay, you know, it's like one day I'm, one day I'm playing on the streets of Paris and the next day I'm in the studio with the Rolling Stones. It was like, wow, check me out, mom.

SPEAKER_00:

So great. Well, fantastic. A brilliant thing to do. Congrats on that. So, so as you say, then that led on to you, you know, you decided, I think they still wanted you to, to play with them, but you, decided to return to the State Centre and to cut your own album and sort of pursue your own solo career then, yeah?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man, hey, it was like, hey, I wasn't going to be no Rolling Stone, okay? So I had to do it on my own.

SPEAKER_00:

Brilliant. Well, so quite a brave decision though, you know, having a gig like that and sort of deciding you weren't going to go off on your own. So your debut solo album was in 1979, the Crossroads album.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that was my first solo album, yeah, where I got an opportunity to to write songs and record some of the tunes that I really loved by some of the traditional cats. Like I covered Sonny Boy Williamson's Pontiac

SPEAKER_01:

Blues.

SPEAKER_02:

And I covered Howlin' Wolves, Who's Been Talkin',

SPEAKER_00:

you and then you did another album a few years later called From Paris to Chicago which obviously had that transition from you moving back to the States. You were back in Chicago then. Is that when you went back and you started, you performed a little bit with Big Walter and Carrie Bell and James Cotton, some of the guys we talked with earlier on. Did you get back and meet with those guys and start playing with them?

SPEAKER_02:

I did more listening to those cats than I did playing with them. I remember playing with Junior one night. He played a regular Seahawk and I used a three 1965 14 hole and it was really it was really something kind of special i remember that i wish i wish somebody had recorded it it was beautiful

SPEAKER_00:

yeah well it's a shame uh everyone has smartphones now it's a shame it would have been caught wouldn't it but yeah unfortunately back then it was not the same in 1984 you recorded a track which was on the uh i think the the montreux jazz festival festival in switzerland is a another man done gone which is playing a low harp And that album won a Grammy for the best traditional blues. So remember that album? Oh, yeah, I

SPEAKER_02:

remember that. Coco Taylor was on that record. Quite a few other Chicago players. It was really a special time for me. I met Nina Simone there. It was just fantastic, man. Some of the great jazz players were there. I got to hang out and play with them and sit in with Doobie King. That was a very special time Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

and did you receive a Grammy Award? Have you still got the Grammy Award for that?

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_00:

then in 1988, you played on another Grammy-winning awarded record with Willie Dixon playing on the Hidden Charms album. So you toured with the Chicago Blues All-Stars, Willie Dixon's band, for a few years, didn't you? And that's an album which came out of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. I mean, working with Willie Dixon was maybe one of the greatest, one of the greatest things that ever happened to me. Dixon taught me so much. He helped me to learn how to write songs. I mean, he was a teacher, a mentor, and a friend. It was really a great experience getting to work with him. Getting to work with him, heck, just getting to sit down and talk to him and listen to him, you know, his experience over more than 40 years or 40 or 50 years in the It was really a very special time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, real legend. And of course, wrote a lot of great blues songs, didn't he? So yeah, fantastic to play with him. In 1994, you released the Blue Blazes album, which is your first album on the famous Alligator blues label,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah? Yeah, yeah. Actually, it was for a Japanese record company that was distributed by Alligator Records. I remember Rico McFarlane, my partner in crime for many, many years, one of the greatest guitar players in the blues music period. Talk me into covering Miss You. I said, man, come on. I don't want to do that. He said, yeah, yeah, you got to do that. And so we came up with a version of it. I had a ball doing that. I had a ball doing that.

SPEAKER_00:

So presumably you had to get permission from the Rolling Stones management to do that. Was that all good? Were they happy to give you that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there was no problem. I mean, come on, you know, every time somebody covers that tune, they get paid, okay?

SPEAKER_00:

You made that song with your riff, let's face it.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey man, I gave it my heart and soul. You know, working with them was really quite an experience. I had a ball. And one of my favorite guys in that band, Gary and now is running with. I love that guy. I absolutely love that guy. What a fiery spirit. What a gregarious and fun guy to be around.

SPEAKER_00:

you know getting into the into the 90s you know you had blue blazers and then you did the album in your eyes also on this on the alligator label which you know is a bit of a departure from a strict blues album

SPEAKER_02:

you know i had been writing i had been writing some songs and i really wanted to i wanted to stretch you know because for me the blues the blues has spawned practically all of the great music that we listen to now rock pop punk funk country jazz you name it so i just wanted to dabble into some of that kind of into some of the musics that were spawned by the blues.

SPEAKER_00:

There's quite a few live albums of you available. So, you know, if you're playing live concerts, which, you know, captures a nice live sound and, you know, nice long solos from you. So, I mean, what about that, releasing the live albums? Is that something you've been really encouraged to do to get that different sound out?

SPEAKER_02:

I'll tell you what, man. I really didn't want to do live albums. I really liked the control that's possible in the studio. But the band had been bugging me for years. It was like, at some point, I was like, okay all right enough let's do it you know and I did it because I did it because because I wanted him to stop wearing my brain out about doing it and the drummer finally he just he just said okay that's it I quit if you don't do a live album I quit I was like okay all right all right all right we'll do it and I'm actually I'm really glad we did

SPEAKER_00:

yeah no some great ones and some great songs on there and then back to the studio in 2007, the Code Blue album, you do a song called Chicago Blues, which is, you know, very much about, you know, the sort of decline of the popularity of the blues and that it's your responsibility and other people to try and keep the blues alive. Ain't

SPEAKER_01:

nobody waters in Chicago And the wolf don't howl no more Junior Wells and the Bad Axe Have left the

SPEAKER_00:

Did you write the lyrics to that song yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I did. My bass player and I came up with the music and the melody for it. Actually, she came up with a bass line that was kind of outrageous. I was like, ooh, that's nasty. And so we started working at it and Junior Rose had passed not too long ago and it just made me realize that, man, all of the great old timers were leaving us. And so as a result, Chicago Blues is the song that resulted from that feeling of Ross. I feel that I was so very blessed to have been able to know and work with these guys. And I will never be able to thank Memphis Slim enough because he said, son, playing over here and, you know, cutting and working with the stones and all of that, that's all that's good. He said, but what you really need to do is go to Chicago and sit down and listen and learn from some of those great blues harmonica players to And that was some of the best advice that I ever got.

SPEAKER_00:

But you're back in living in Europe now. You're living in Italy now. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yes, we're in Italy now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Okay. So on the Cold Blue album, sorry, and also on the In Your Eyes album as well, you play some chromatic harmonica here. So the Average Guy song on the In Your Eyes albums plays some pretty tasty chromatic.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

So chromatic's something you use quite a lot of, yeah, not just in a blues context.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it's like I was listening to Stevie and cats like Toots Tillman. Not that I can equal these people, but I was definitely influenced by them. And the chromatic harmonica lends itself to a very melodic and very beautiful and warm sound, which is why I used it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and a very effective on-the-average-guy song, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, actually, I used it in a tune called Lip Service and Lies, too, and in Chicago Blues. Actually, I mixed the chromatic harmonica for the hook, and the chromatic harmonica and diatonic harmonica recorded one over the other, and it really was a special kind of sound.¶¶

SPEAKER_00:

On the Threshold album, you do this song, Ramblin'. What two harmonicas are they? It sounds like there's maybe a bass harmonica on

SPEAKER_02:

there. Yeah, one is called a chromonica. It's a chromatic instrument, and it's all blow. And it's in the bass, and it's in the bass clef. And then there's a 365-14 home harmonic marine band in the key of C, which they stopped making, and it broke my heart.

SPEAKER_00:

So is it you playing both the harmonicas? yeah that's me playing both hearts yeah I know it sounds great really effective that one there's an interview with you on the last song on that Threshold album which is really interesting and a really good interview so well worth a listen if people want to hear more from you on that on the last track on that Threshold album

SPEAKER_02:

oh yeah right yeah I was yeah I was chatterboxing my brains out on that one

SPEAKER_00:

well you say this really beautiful thing about what music means to you towards the end of that interview which is really beautiful to hear so yeah I recommend people checking that out. Really stumbling up what the music means to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Music is the intermediary between the spiritual and sensual life. You know what I mean? It is the medium between the spiritual and the sensual life. It touches everything we do and every aspect of our lives.

SPEAKER_00:

Another live album from you, Raw Sugar, in 2012. And a song which you're quite well associated with is Muddy Waters' One More Mile. And you do this effect where you hold a single note for like a really long time. So that's a little harmonica trick you like to do, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Every now and then, you know, it was like, I felt like it was effective at the time. So I did it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think it is. I think people are like, wow, how does he not need to breathe? So it's worth it from that point of view. If nothing else, it's It's impressive. Getting on to your most recent album, which is called Colors, released in 2019. So what about that album and why the name Colors?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, just the various colors of the music, you know, because we did, we did, we touched on quite a few different genres in that. And I thought, oh, there's many different colors in that, in that album. So I was like, okay, colors. That's the name of the album.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, it's a great album as well. So yeah, I say your most recent album and getting out there now. And so a couple of the songs. So on the song, I'm the devil too. You got this great sound effect with a, with a harmonica, which kind of summons the devil, yeah? So it's really effective, that sort of effect you've got on the harmonic on that one.

SPEAKER_02:

I just hooked up to my amplifier. Actually, it was an amplifier, a boogie that Keith Richards gave me. And I just maxed it out and used lots of middle. And I just overdrove it to a max. And the sound worked really well for me. I mean, I thought it was great for that particular tune.

SPEAKER_00:

yeah no it's great yeah really shows that range of sounds coming out the harmonica yeah and then you know you say you've got a few different styles on there you've got some nice acoustic playing on there we've got bass reeves which is a you know some nice acoustic sounds you do day tripper by the beatles so uh

SPEAKER_02:

I love that

SPEAKER_00:

tune. And you do the Day Tripper riff on the harmonica. So, you know, how do you approach a song that's so sort of well-known as Day Tripper?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, we had one of the great bass players in the Ice Kickers, and I said, hey, man, I want to funk this up. And he said, well, how about this? And he came up with this bass line that was really rocking. And so the rest of but it was easy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, and I really like the song Man Like Me as well. That's a great one. Something interesting. Did you write the lyrics for that one?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I did. That was a breakup song.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so a great album. So you're still promoting the album Colors now. I think it's come out reasonably recently, hasn't it? Obviously, during this time, that's something you're still trying to promote. Yeah, yeah. And

SPEAKER_02:

actually, you know, very shortly, we're going to start working on a new one.

SPEAKER_00:

We'll move on from your recording career, though. You played with lots of great people. You played with Muddy Waters, I believe, as well, B.B. King, Art Blakey, Stan Getz you played with as well, is that right? Yeah, actually I got to record with him, yes. Did you record or you played with Frank Zappa even?

SPEAKER_02:

I worked with Zappa and it was a live thing that we did in the Terry Mutualité, a huge theater in Paris. And he said, hey man, I want to play some blues. Will you play some blues with me, I was like, hell yeah, are you kidding? You know, because, I mean, Zappa was a guitar god, you know, and somebody that I really loved for a long time. And so it was really a great pleasure to work with him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, fantastic. Legendary Frank Zappa and the very interesting things he's done through the years. Yeah, and talking to you on the awards, you know, you've got two Grammys under your belt for the recordings you played on. You've also won the Chicago Music Best Performer in 2012, 13 and 14 as well. So you're still, you know, very active there in the Chicago thing and winning those three awards. That was

SPEAKER_02:

really special, you know, I mean, to win those kind of awards in Chicago for a New Yorker is really kind of special.

SPEAKER_00:

And and you played at Robert Johnson's The 100th Birthday concert at the Apollo Theatre, which is where your mother started out as well. You had a special time for you there.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. I was like, okay, hey, I'm here. I did it, you know, because, you know, it's like I hung around that theatre from the time I was a kid. I never thought I would get an opportunity to play there. It meant more to me than playing at Carnegie Hall, okay, because I played at Carnegie Hall with Willie Dixon. And that was nice. But playing at the Apollo Theater, that was the top.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like your mother wasn't at the concert.

SPEAKER_02:

No, my mom had passed away quite a few years before.

SPEAKER_00:

And so I'm in the UK and you've come over here a few times with Giles Robson and the blues concerts that he's put on and he's brought you over and he's played with his band and Billy Branch. So how about those gigs with Giles Robson?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. We had a ball, you know. Billy played there, Giles. Yeah, you played with Charlie Musselwhite. Yeah, Charlie Musselwhite was there, yeah. It was fun. We had fun there, you know. Hanging out, talking harmonica It was great. And we played some great music together.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I saw one of those concerts. I was there when you played in Burnley. You've recorded on some film tracks. You recorded on a Robert De Niro film, Angel Heart, in 1987, yeah? Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

and Brandon McGee brought me in on that. Brandon McGee brought me in on that. I remember I got a call and he said, hey, you want to do a movie with me? And I was like, I mean, when Brandon McGee calls and says, do you want to? It doesn't matter what you want you to do, you do it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, fantastic, yeah. So it's great to be on that. And then you did a sort of you played also with Fats Domino and Ray Charles on a sort of Fats Domino's and Friends music documentary

SPEAKER_02:

yeah that was really great man I mean that was that was a dream come true for me man to work with Ray Charles and Fats Domino and Jerry Lewis man that was really the bomb it was really the bomb I mean but standing next to for me one of the greatest one of the greatest voices of all time Ray Charles it was I had no roots for that

SPEAKER_00:

well again one of the great so you play with some fantastic people and that doesn't get much better than Ray Charles as well so yeah well done you've got an amazing career so

SPEAKER_02:

yeah I recorded with Dylan too I had an opportunity to record with Dylan way back in the 70s

SPEAKER_00:

wow do you know which track that was

SPEAKER_02:

yeah it's called it's called nobody can throw the ball like catfish can it was about it was a blues song about a baseball player

SPEAKER_00:

so brilliant yeah again a fantastic recording career played with some some of the biggest names in music there so if we move on to the last section now we'll talk a little about your playing style and then about some of your gear again so yeah I'll move on so your playing style you know is very quite unique in harmonica you know you play quite a lot of fast licks you play a lot of top end stuff you've got a very distinctive style there's a quote about you which you transcend the supposed limitations of the instrument so you know how do you approach that style and what do you think about that tag

SPEAKER_02:

hey man you know people people said well that was a critic a music critic wrote that about me I really appreciated it I just do what I do man I play I mean I play from my heart and and I took in the various musical experiences and influences that I've had over the years into into the music I play it's just me it's just what I do Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, it's very effective and, you know, very distinctive sound. You know, you definitely push the harmonica. You know, you don't sound like anybody else. You know, so it's great what you've done. So obviously we talked about you listening to jazz early on and I've heard you say that you like to practice scales. So is that the way that maybe on the top end, especially where you do some runs, which, you know, kind of based on your practice of scales and, you know, and the importance of playing that, you know, playing scales and that type of stuff?

SPEAKER_02:

I like on any instrument, man. If you want a massive facility in fluid you better practice skills

SPEAKER_00:

but you've also you know as well as this you know you're not just a fast player but you also do get some really beautiful acoustic tone you know some some beautiful war sounds you know when people checking you out if they're not that familiar you know you get some you know some really truly fantastic tone on the harmonica as well so you know what about how you developed you know a nice tone as well so

SPEAKER_02:

I listen to cats like Big Walter and Center Boy and try to absorb as much from them as I could, you know, because they're masterful acoustic harmonica players. You take as much as you possibly can from the masters and try and interiorize it and then do what you do your way according to the things that you've learned from them, you know. For me, one of the plays with the most incredible acoustic sound was Big Walter, man. What a... I mean, I used to sit in front of him and I'm still awed by the sound that that man could get out of a harmonic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I've heard that from other people too, you know. What do you think it was? Because he had big hands for one thing, was that...

SPEAKER_02:

He had big hands and he had a very large face. From his cheekbone down to his jawbone. I mean, that gave him a sound box that was... That was incredible.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so those physical attributes, yeah. And you do, there's a nice video of you doing an unplugged video on YouTube, which I'll put a link to on, and again, showing off your acoustic tone there, and you do a nice version of old blues on there as well, which, you know, showing your jazzy roots again there.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, man. I mean, all blues. Miles Davis, man. I love that guy. Talk about somebody that can play the blues.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're right. You know, listening to those sax players, those horn players, you know, who thought it was jazz, but they play blues a lot of the time, don't they? So a lot of harmonica players will do well to go and listen to some of those guys and get the blues lines out of the jazz guys as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, you've got to expand your musical input, you know what I'm saying? And so that you can

SPEAKER_00:

paint with a broad brush. So a question I ask each time is if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_02:

I would practice my scales, take time to listen to and play a song that I like, you know, work on a melody of a song that I like. And that would pretty much cover it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that'd take 10 minutes. So we'll move on to the last section now. So, yeah, so talking about gear now. So first of all, an iconic picture of you is wearing that great harmonica belt that you have, the sort of gunslinger sort of belt with all your harmonicas in. So where did you get that one from?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I used to keep my harmonicas in a box on top of my amp, and one night I reached back there and I went to grab a harp and knocked the entire box over behind the stage, and that was like, okay, I've got to find another way to keep my harps where I can get my hands on them. And that was where the harmonica belt was born.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so did you have that purpose built for you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I did. A friend of mine built it for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because they're quite tricky in a way, aren't they? Because you find it works, but it doesn't get in the way and it holds your harps well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and then you've got all your harps right there on your chest. I mean, it

SPEAKER_00:

works. And it's, again, certainly a great look. I'm talking about the harmonicas that you play, your harmonica of choice. I know you play the Special 20 for a long time. Was that your favorite harmonica?

SPEAKER_02:

When they first made the Special 20, I started playing it because I had been using, of course, my own band because that's all there is before. That's all there was from Homer before that. And I practiced so much that the space divided between the reeds would swell up and cut my tongue and cut my lips. And when they put out the plastic one, I said, yeah, man, finally, great. No more cut up lips, no more bleeding tongue.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, of course, back then they didn't treat the wood in the marine bands, but they've got the crossovers now. So are you playing the crossovers or are you still using the Special 20s?

SPEAKER_02:

I still use the Special 20s. I mean, I've used the crossovers, especially the low tone ones on a track that I caught, but I prefer the Special 20. I mean, you know, that's my hop of choice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, have you tried the Rockets? Because the Rockets is a sort of new version of the Special 20. They're very nice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, actually, I was talking with my guy at Horner, and he was telling me, yeah, you've got to try this. You've got to try this. You're going to really like it. I said, okay, send me some. We'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_00:

You talked about the 365, the extended range Horner diatonic, which Sonny Boy used to play, of course. So you still have some of those.

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, Sonny Boy never played that.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, did he not? Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

No, he didn't. What he used was the Yeah. Yeah. wasn't using the... I thought he was using the 14 move.

SPEAKER_00:

And do you have a favourite key of a diatonic?

SPEAKER_02:

Not particularly. The key that works for the song. That's all that matters for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because I notice in your songs you do play quite a wide range of harps. So you're up to quite a lot on the F harp and then down on the lower ones as well. Obviously you play the low harps like in Another Man Done Gone. So yeah, you have a big range there. And do you play any different tunings at all?

SPEAKER_02:

No. On a regularly tuned, I remember Willie Dixon gave me a minor tuned harmonica. I didn't really like it. He was like, if I want to play in a minor, then I'll just

SPEAKER_00:

change positions on a regular harp. So, yeah, so you're talking about positions then. I mean, you play various positions on the harp.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like, you know, first, second, third, some fourth, and that's about it for me. I go as far as fourth. I've used fifth, but I never recorded anything

SPEAKER_00:

with it. I think you do play some overblows, don't you?

SPEAKER_02:

No, man, I'm not a big fan of overblows, you know, which is one of the reasons that if I need overblows, if I need those notes, I'll go to a chromatic, you know. Here and there on some tracks, I've used like an overblow here or there, but I'm not an overblow guy.

SPEAKER_00:

And what about the ombus you use? Are you a lip purser or a tone blocker?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm a tone blocker, yeah. Yeah, man, like, old school, man. You know what I mean? Old school. Like, uh, Big Walter, um, Willie Walter, um, Silly Boy.

SPEAKER_00:

And, uh, and amplifiers? Any particular favorite amplifier?

SPEAKER_02:

I use, I mean, wow, from the time that Keith gave me the boogie, I used that for, I mean, I used that for about, from the time I recorded, uh, Miss You on. I mean, I used it on practically every, practically everything that I recorded. I used, I used, uh, So a

SPEAKER_00:

mess of boogie

SPEAKER_02:

is that? And

SPEAKER_00:

microphones, any microphones particularly?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What about recording? Any microphones, particularly for recording?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the Green Bullet, and every now and then I still have an Aesthetic that I like for some things. Mostly I use the Shure Green Bullet, mostly now.

SPEAKER_00:

And what about effects pedals? We talked about you use effects very well, so any effects you use?

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, I used to use effects when I was living in France. I used to use a lot of pedals back then and I used pedals when I first moved over to Chicago. But at some point, I just dumped all the effects and went with the... And I was like, I wanted to get back to the natural sound of the harp and hear the amplifier.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so last question then. So again, thanks for your time and I appreciate you taking the time. You're busy there. No problem, man. Thank you. Just about your future plans now. What have you got coming up? You mentioned that you're thinking about recording a new album.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, man. I've written a lot of tunes, man. Since the COVID lockdown gave me a lot time to sit around and think about this that and the other so I've written a lot of material and it's time to get in the

SPEAKER_00:

studio and record So is that going to happen maybe come out next year that album? Yeah

SPEAKER_02:

I think it should be ready by next year Are

SPEAKER_00:

you going to record that over in Italy or are you going back to Chicago?

SPEAKER_02:

Well right now I'm going to probably be doing some Zoom sessions, man. Oh, yeah. I'll zoom into Chicago and hook up with Rico McFarlane. And we'll do it like that. We'll do it like that, you know. I don't want to be traveling all over the place right now, man. COVID is saying stay. Hunker down.

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely, yeah. So thank you so much for joining me today and taking the time, Sugar Boo. It's been great to speak to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey, man, my pleasure, Neil. Thank you, and

SPEAKER_00:

take care. Y'all stay safe, and good music to you. That's another episode in the bag. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Apologies for the sound quality on that. Sugar was in a restaurant, but I'm sure you'll all agree, some fantastic stuff from him there. Word from my sponsor again, the Long Wolf Blues Company. Makers of effects pedals and microphones and amplifiers. Some great stuff they make to complement your sound. Be sure to check out their website. And also a reminder that the Spotify playlist contains most of the tracks discussed during the podcast. So search that out on Spotify and listen to some of the recordings of these great artists. And the final thing, please remember to subscribe to the podcast. You get updates on your favourite podcast player on your smartphone then. Of course you can listen through the website. So Sugar, play as the hoochie coochie ma.