Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast
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Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast
Billy Boy Arnold interview
Billy Boy Arnold joins me on episode 53.
Today we have a little part of blues harmonica history, as Billy lived through the heyday of the blues in Chicago and was a peer of the many great players at the time, being born just five years after Little Walter himself. He took a couple of lessons with John Lee Williamson, aka SBWI, at just 12 years of age.
Billy released his first record at the age of 17 and then went on to release two songs with Bo Diddley, including coming up with possibly the most well known harmonica riff ever on I’m A Man. Shortly afterwards Billy went on to record his harmonica classic, I Wish You Would.
Billy took some time off from touring for a few years before he came back strong with two albums released through Alligator records in the 1990s. He has continued to record and release great albums until recently, and his passion for the harmonica is as infectious as ever after over 70 years of playing.
Links:
Discography:
https://www.wirz.de/music/arnoldbb.htm
More Blues On The South Side album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML3xmmjhItU
The Blues Dream of Billy Boy Arnold book (by Kim Field):
https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo119945396.html
Kim Field website:
https://www.kimfield.com
Videos:
Tom Jones playing I Wish You Would live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgmJgQzcrI
American Blues Legends Tour 1975:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvUa_56XysM
Studio recording of song from SBWI album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmqHIjTenHw
John Peel session with BBC from 1977:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAL-0nwbzZ8
Three Harp Boogie song with James Cotton and Paul Butterfield:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkHchw-sHzk
Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com
Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB
Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ
Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/
Billy Boy Arnold joins me on episode 53. Today we have a little part of blues harmonica history as Billy lived through the heyday of the blues in Chicago and was a peer of many of the great players at the time, being born just five years after the little Walter himself. He took a couple of lessons with John Lee Williamson, aka Sonny Boy Williamson I, at just 12 years of age. Billy released his first record at the age of 17 and then went on to release two songs with Bo Diddley, including coming up with possibly the most well-known harmonica riff ever on I'm a Man. Shortly afterwards, Billy went on to record his harmonica classic I Wish You Would. Billy took some time off from touring for a few years before he came back strong with two albums released through Alligator Records in the 1990s. He has continued to record and release great albums until recently, and his passion for the harmonica is as infectious as ever. after over 70 years of playing. Hello, Billy Boy Arnold, and welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_05:So great, Billy. So you're... You're a guy who was around when all, you know, the Chicago Blues was kicking off and all the greats around. I think you were born in 1935. So you're only five years younger than little Walter, weren't you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:You know, you grew up with that scene. You know, obviously you're from Chicago as well, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:You grew up with that scene. So, you know, what first got you interested in the harmonica?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I was listening to blues records when I was four or five years old and I liked blues. And then I got interested in harmonica when I heard John Lee's Sonny Boy Williamson That was when I was about five, six years old then. But I didn't know he played the harmonica. I just liked the way he sang. And later on, I found out that he plays the harmonica.
SPEAKER_05:Great, yeah. So John Lee is a forerunner for a lot of the modern harmonica sound, wasn't he? So I understand you had some lessons with him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I had two lessons with him when I was 12 years old.
SPEAKER_05:So how did you get in touch with him?
SPEAKER_01:Well, my uncle had a butcher shop on 31st and Giles. Sonny Boy lived at 3226 Giles. And I saw a guy pass with a guitar and I asked him, I said, did you know Sonny Boy? He said, yeah, Sonny Boy. Yeah, I know. He said, Sonny Boy lived He lived at 3226 Giles, and that's how I found out where he lived at.
SPEAKER_05:Sure, so you went round there, and what, you just asked him for a lesson, or?
SPEAKER_01:Well, me and my cousin got together, me and my cousin, and I was a kid. We was all 12-year-old kids. They weren't interested in blues, but I was. So I got them to go with me, and we rung the doorbell, and he came to the door, and he said, can I help you? I said, we want to see Sonny Boy. He said, this is Sonny Boy. I said, we want to hear you play your harmonica. He said, come on up, I'm proud to have you on. So I met with him on two occasions before he was murdered.
SPEAKER_05:Do you remember particularly what he said to you in the lessons? Anything that stuck with you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, he told me, well, you have to choke it to make that wah-wah, you know, get that blues sound. So you have to choke it. Today they call it bending the notes. But back in them days, all the black guys, the older black guys called it choking.
SPEAKER_05:So you were just 12 at this stage, yes? How good were you on harmonica at this point?
SPEAKER_01:I wasn't good at all. I didn't know nothing about how to play.
SPEAKER_05:Right. So you were almost pretty much a beginner, yeah? I was.
SPEAKER_01:I was a beginner.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So what was John Lee like then in these lessons? Was he a good teacher?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was a good, nice, friendly guy. He seemed to enjoy our company. He had guests at his house, pianists, Johnny Jones and his girlfriend. And he took his time up and he was, you know, teaching us. So we got ready to go and he said, by any time, so I met with him one more time before he was murdered.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And do you remember what you paid him for the lesson?
SPEAKER_01:I didn't pay for it.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, great.
SPEAKER_01:He didn't charge me for no lesson, though. Superb, yeah. And
SPEAKER_05:did you discover that he'd been murdered, you know, after you went round again, or what was the story?
SPEAKER_01:Well, when we came back, the third time I came by there, and then the landlady said, haven't you heard? He got killed,
SPEAKER_05:you know.
SPEAKER_01:That's a rough times back then, eh?
SPEAKER_05:So as you say, so you joined with John Lee Williamson and the first was the 4Runner 2, you know, getting that more modern sound on the harmonica.
UNKNOWN:...
SPEAKER_05:This was, what, 1947 then, when you had a couple of lessons with him? 1948. So was blues starting to become popular in Chicago at that stage?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, the blues was popular in Chicago,
SPEAKER_05:in the
SPEAKER_01:black area, all the time.
SPEAKER_05:All through the 40s as well, was it?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. That was the music of the black people from the South. All the black people in Chicago and everywhere else came from the South.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and lots of immigration into Chicago, wasn't it? But you were born in Chicago yourself, weren't you? You're a native of Chicago. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they migrated from the South because there were more jobs in the North, and they weren't under such pressure,
SPEAKER_05:you know? Yeah. Okay, and so what about when you started playing yourself around Chicago? What sort of age were you, you know, started getting involved? playing with bands?
SPEAKER_01:I guess I was about 17 because I was too young to go on clubs. You had to be 21 to get in nightclubs. So I guess I was about 17 and I listened to all the blues guys buying the records and, you know, it's just one of those things that you keep doing it and you keep doing it and you get the results.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so you had a recording when you were 17 called Hello Stranger. I
SPEAKER_01:sure
SPEAKER_05:did.
UNKNOWN:Hello Stranger
SPEAKER_05:You can hear the influence of the Sonny Boy, the first sound on that one.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I was trying. I didn't know any other. I think Lil' Walter had just started recording with Muddy Waters. Lil' Walter's sound was, you know, becoming popular.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So this is where harmonica started to become really popular, was it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we got to the place where most bands didn't have a harmonica in it because Lil' Walter made the harmonica so popular after Sonny Boy, you know. Most clubs wanted a harmonica in the band because of Lil' Walter and Muddy Waters' influence.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but you'd already been playing by this. So were you, you're also the singing as well. You sing on this record, Her Old Stranger, don't you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Well, you had to sing. You're going to be a blues harmonica player. You've got to be able to sing. I didn't know whether I could sing, but I tried, you know.
SPEAKER_05:So you're playing harmonica first, were you? And then, like you say, you kind of realized you had to sing to be able to get into the blues scene.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was singing all the time with harmonica.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, she fooled me that time I thought she was just a dumb girl I listen
SPEAKER_01:to records, so playing the harmonica without singing is not the right thing to do. If you want to make records and be popular like Sonny Boy and Lil Walls or Slinky Pryor.
SPEAKER_05:You get a lot of harmonica players now who don't sing, don't you? So you think there's a place for that, or you still think singing and playing the harmonica is something that needs to go together?
SPEAKER_01:don't need to go together no you got harmonica players that don't sing and most of the time if they don't sing they probably didn't have the aptitude to sing you know maybe the voice wasn't but if you're going to be a blues singer a harmonica player a blues singer a guitar player you got to sing too you know some of them have and some of them don't
SPEAKER_05:yeah but I guess it helps you become that front man doesn't it which helps you call the shots a bit more so on this recording of A Lost Stranger I believe this is where you got your nickname Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:they gave me that name, the record company.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I was surprised. I called them up and they
SPEAKER_01:said, we gave you a new name, Billy Boy.
SPEAKER_05:I understand at that age you weren't so pleased with the title Boy, you know, that sort of age you were.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, when you're young like that, you want to be a man, you want to be recognized as more mature, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but it stuck and it turned out well for the name, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, it was all right, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I guess, you know, Sonny Boy, the first is your big idol, so having Boy in the title, it matched up with that, didn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:That W's single, Hello Stranger, then, did that then put your name on the map? Did that start getting you more recognition and more gigs?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it put my name on the map in Chicago. I don't know whether they're all over, you know, all over the United States. But Sonny Boy's wife said, you're not in the music business unless you make records. So you can be a great singer, great piano player, great harmonica player, but if you never make records, who knows what you can do, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Hello, stranger. Baby, can you have any company?
SPEAKER_05:And, you know, it came about that you got the, you know, to go into the studio to make that record.
SPEAKER_01:Blind John Davis. who made a lot of records for Sonny Boy. We became good friends when I was about 14 or 15. And he had these friends who were starting a record company, and they were looking for talent. So he introduced me to these people.
SPEAKER_05:Great. And did you have your own band then, or did you just have a sort
SPEAKER_01:of scratch band? No, I didn't have a band. I was just a kid, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, great. It's a good record, though, for the first record. And then a few years later, you know, it's quite famous for you, you started playing with Bo Diddley.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right,
SPEAKER_05:yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I started playing with Bo Diddley in 1951.
SPEAKER_05:So did you, I believe, did you meet him on Maxwell Street? You were playing with him on Maxwell Street?
SPEAKER_01:No, I met him on the south side of Chicago. He was playing on the street corners, you know. And I told him I played harmonica, and he invited me to come by his house Saturday and play with them, you know, on the street corners. So you know how his name became Bo Diddley.
SPEAKER_05:So I understand that you were helping write some lyrics for the song Bo Diddley, and you sort of christened him Bo Diddley, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I wasn't helping writing the songs for the song Bo Diddley. We didn't have a song called Bo Diddley, and we didn't have an artist named Bo Diddley. His name was Ellis McDaniels and the Hipsters. And when we'd go into the studio, what I'd heard the bass player had mentioned when we were playing on the corner, he'd say, Hey, Ellis, that goes Bo Diddley. And there was a little short comedian at the Indiana Theater. They had midnight rambles every Saturday night. They'd clear the theater out and have a stage show. Featured a major blues singer Like Big Bill, Bruins, Memphis Mini Sonny Boy played that before A couple of years before that But anyway That's how the word Bo Diddley got into the picture It wasn't that He named himself Bo Diddley
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think on the B-side Of that Bo Diddley song Was the I'm a man, yeah? I'm a man, right, yeah So was that the first time that I'm a man was recorded Or was that an existing song then?
SPEAKER_01:No, it was the first time. He wrote that song. He was a creative guy. He wrote all his material. And he made that song up. And Muddy Waters liked it. And Muddy Waters wanted to do it. Because I'm a man was a statement that the black people in America, especially the men, recognize that they are a man. And everybody knew they were a man. And the whole world knew they were a man. But the whole world, discrimination, they didn't want to, you know, acknowledge it. Joe, he made that record, I'm a Man. Then Muddy Waters made Manish Boy. Same thing as I'm a Man. Same song.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so that's possibly one of the most famous harmonica riffs ever, yeah, the I'm a Man riff. So you've got credibility with coming up with that, you know, like I say, potentially the most famous one. So congratulations on that.
SPEAKER_04:In Maine
SPEAKER_05:Was that a big hit, those two records for you with Bo Diddley?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. His biggest hit was Bo Diddley and the Flipside, I'm a Man. And he put that beat, that was his original. He was very creative and very original, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah, and a little bit different, wasn't he? He wasn't really kind of straight blues, was he? A bit more, what, rock and roll?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, he had, I don't know whether you call it rock and roll. Some people call it rock and roll, but he had a unique way of playing. And he wasn't just a straight-out blues player. He played... Different kind of rhythms, you know, in the most blues guys.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, great. So it was shortly after this, I believe that you had a bit of a misunderstanding with Leonard Chess at Chess Records. So those two records were recorded at Chess, but you had a bit of a misunderstanding thinking that you weren't really wanted at Chess Records. So you went and signed for VJ Records.
SPEAKER_01:No, I didn't have a bit of understanding with Leonard Chess. I never had an agreement with Leonard Chess. My idea was to make records like Muddy Waters and everybody else. And so I had a song and I went to another record company, It wasn't a misunderstanding with Leonard Chess or Bo Diddley, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. But that was quite a big move from you because, you know, you just had a successful single with Bo Diddley. And then you decided you wanted to go out on your own then, did you? Was that part of your reasoning?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I decided that before I met Bo Diddley. When I made Hello Stranger, I didn't know Bo Diddley. So I was out on my own then. I made the record.
SPEAKER_05:Right, yeah. So then we went to VJ Records, which I think was just across the street, was it, from Chess Records? Right, yeah. Yeah. And is that when you first recorded I Wish You Would? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's when I first made it up. Wrote it, if you want to call it that.
SPEAKER_05:So this is Probably your most well-known song, certainly under your name. So that's a song that you've recorded several times. You recorded it back then. Was it originally recorded in 1958? No, 1955. 55.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_05:then you've recorded various versions. So it's been good to you, this song. Is it a song that you still enjoy playing in more recent years?
SPEAKER_01:Now, that's the song that put my name on the map. I wish you would. It's one of my most popular songs, and I still sing it and play it.
SPEAKER_05:I believe originally when you wrote it, it was called Diddy Diddy Dum Dum. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was a little girl that lived in the building. And she used to say that Diddy Diddy Dum Dum. And so I made a little riff up behind it. And then it came from a little three-year-old girl. I used to say Diddy Diddy Dum Dum all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Right, brilliant. And that's the da-da-da-da-da-da, the sort of name of Wish You Would, yeah. I know you kind of got tied a little bit that it was a kind of Bo Diddley style riff in the song because it was that sort of riff which was also part of the Bo Diddley song, was it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, it wasn't part of the Bo Diddley song. Jody Williams made the guitar part of that, and it was sort of on that kick, but it wasn't a Bo Diddley song. Bo Diddley, when he went to the studio, he didn't even have a Bo Diddley song. His name wasn't Bo Diddley. His name was Ellis McDaniels and the Hipsters. The Bo Diddley thing came up when I mentioned that this chameleon at the Indiana Theater, his name was Bo Diddley. His stage name was Bo Diddley.
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_01:that was the funniest word I'd ever heard in my life, and I just laughed and laughed and laughed. So over here in the studio three years after that, he was saying, Papa's going to buy his baby a diamond ring. I said, why don't you say Bo Diddley's going to buy his baby a diamond ring? Now, if I hadn't said that word, Bo Diddley would have never came out, and there wouldn't have been no song called Bo Diddley. There wouldn't have been no artist called Bo Diddley. It just came to my head. I said, why don't you say Bo Diddley's going to buy his baby a diamond ring?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So in 55... you had I wish you would as you say this definitely put your name on the map you became well established then on the Chicago Blues scene did you start were you playing outside Chicago as well at this stage and
SPEAKER_01:Oh, no, I've been playing out around Chicago, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So was that the case with a lot of the blues artists in a lot of it concentrated in Chicago at that stage?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Chicago was like starting ground. I mean, a lot of the guys came from the South to Chicago for different reasons, better conditions and make more money, more jobs. And so I was a big audience for blues in Chicago. So you could get your start here in Chicago and all the major record companies, RSA, Victor, was recording here. That's the male roles of me and R.C. Victor in Columbia. He was recording. They had studios here in Chicago. Recorded Memphis Mini, Tampa Ray, and all these people recorded in Chicago.
SPEAKER_05:Great, yeah. So you were playing, obviously, all the greats. Little Walter was active at this stage. He was still with Muddy Waters in the mid-50s and all the other greats. Junior Wells was around at this stage and obviously the two Sonny boys as well. So were you, you know, in regular seeing these guys playing on the same stages isn't.
SPEAKER_01:We'll be right back.
UNKNOWN:So,
SPEAKER_01:So Chicago was like the main place to go if you want to play blues, or here, if you like blues, Chicago was the city.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, sure, yeah. So the blues boom in Chicago lasted through the 50s, and as it started getting into the 1960s, the blues was becoming less popular at that time.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, well, the country blues, you know, like Lil Walton, Muddy Waters, and all those guys, their music sort of was changing, but the blues was still very popular, and all the guitar players would come to Chicago and try to get a start, and when they got to Chicago, they wanted to play jazz, and they couldn't play jazz, because in order to play jazz, you had to study, so they'd come to Chicago, I don't want to play no blues, I want to play jazz. They couldn't play jazz.
SPEAKER_05:And then through the 60s, you released the couple of albums i've got here that your 1963 album blues on the south side was that your first solo artist album or did you already release an album your name with the sort of i wish you would album
SPEAKER_01:i think that might have been the first solo
SPEAKER_05:album so And then, you know, another album through the 60s, going to Chicago in the mid-60s. So you still acted through the 60s, but the blues was a bit less popular at that stage, yes? Yeah. I think a lot of the blues artists went over to Europe to start playing. Did you... Did you go up to Europe yourself during that time?
SPEAKER_01:No, not during that time. Well, the big artists like Holland Wolf and Muddy Waters was booked in Europe because the European people liked the blues and they knew it came and originated in Chicago. So it became popular to go to Europe to play the blues for the people in Europe.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and in the 60s, of course, famously the British blues boom was big and the Yardbirds did two of your songs. They recorded I Wish You Would and Ain't Got You. So
SPEAKER_04:how
SPEAKER_05:did you feel about people covering your songs?
SPEAKER_01:I appreciated it. It was a compliment. That's the greatest compliment Yeah. Did you
SPEAKER_05:get any money out of it, Billy? Here's the question.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the... VJ Publishing, they took all the money. I got$750 out of it. Yeah. Around 1967 or 68, something like that. See, the publishing company, like VJ, all the money went to them. And they didn't give the artists any money.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. But you didn't feel bad about the iPads? Because like you say, it wasn't...
SPEAKER_01:Oh, no. I thought it was great. I mean, it enhanced my popularity.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:My name and everything. I appreciated what they did.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it got you some more recognition, yeah. And I believe, is it right, that David Bowie also covered I Wish You Would?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he sure did, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, great. So obviously he was a massive name.
SPEAKER_01:And Tom Jones made a video. Did you ever see that video of Tom Jones, I Wish You Would?
SPEAKER_05:No, I'll find it, though. I'll put a link to that
SPEAKER_01:on there. Yeah, it was a video. It was on television. And it's called I Wish You Would. Tom Jones did it.
SPEAKER_05:Excellent. Yeah, good stuff. So you were still playing for the sort of 60s and, you know, 60s, 70s, and you were still quite active. I think in 1975, you were part of the American blues legends.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I think you particularly came back into, you know, sort of relaunching almost, you know, into full-time music back in the 90s when you released two albums on Alligator Records.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's true,
SPEAKER_05:yeah. Yeah, so the first one was called Back Where I Belong, which is a suitable title for your sort of relaunching your solo
SPEAKER_04:quiz. Back Inside
SPEAKER_05:what happened to come about that you did you decide then to get back into music full-time or was the opportunity
SPEAKER_01:there well i never i never got out of it but if you're not really uh recording and not traveling uh you're sort of like uh you ain't getting exposure so you got to travel and record and keep the exposure going you know
SPEAKER_05:yeah so
SPEAKER_01:yeah i never got out of it
SPEAKER_05:sure yeah so It got you more recognition getting on Alligator, yeah. And then did you start touring again after you'd done this album with Alligator
SPEAKER_01:in 1980? Yes, I sure did, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Sure, yeah. And I believe you wrote nine of the songs for this album.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I wrote most of it. The stuff I did for Alligator was two of my best albums. The stuff I did for Alligator was the most popular.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:To me, the best stuff I ever wrote was for Alligator.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, definitely. The El Dorado Cadillac album, which is the second album with Alligators. Yeah, definitely one of my favorites of yours. And that Move On Down The Road is a great song as well.
SPEAKER_04:Don't worry, I'll still be around I might not even leave this town I got to find me something else to do I got to get me somebody new No
SPEAKER_05:matter where I still go I think I'll move on
SPEAKER_01:And the great blues singers all wrote most of their own material. They didn't have people like, you know, in Hollywood writing stuff for you. You had to have a big name. Like if you were Frank Sinatra, they got writers all over the world trying to get you to do one of their songs. Because if Frank Sinatra did a song, then whoever wrote it would get to expose you and the popularity. So I knew from the beginning, I knew that Sonny Boy wrote all this stuff, material. And I knew that that you couldn't find somebody to write material for you. You had to write your own material. Some people can write good material. Some, you know, don't have the knack for it. Some of them just go around and sing other people's songs. But writing your own material gives you more recognition and is the best thing to do if you can do it.
SPEAKER_05:Sure. So how do you approach writing songs? Did you do that, you know, write the lyrics or did you use, you know, an instrument like a guitar when you were putting it together?
SPEAKER_01:No, I just think of a song, maybe a woman's name or a topic, find some kind of topic, and I write a song around it, an idea, you know, something you do, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Writing the lyrics first, and then what you'd work with the other guys in the band to sort of put the music together with it, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, put a band arrangement behind it.
SPEAKER_04:And no matter where I go You keep a ring But I ain't got you. I got a talent and a little stone. I got the number.
SPEAKER_05:So great. So, yes, you have these two albums on Alligator, which definitely got you, you know, back on touring. And did you then start touring around the world at this stage again? Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yes,
SPEAKER_05:I did. Around the world. How do you enjoy life on the road?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I enjoyed it, you know. You know, when you're doing it and you've got a company behind you that's pushing your records, it's just fun. It's good.
SPEAKER_05:What sort of places did you get to? You went across to Europe, and where else did you get to?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I went all over Europe, everywhere,
SPEAKER_05:you know. And so, great. And after that, you know, another album I've got down here is Boogie and Shuffle in 2001. Was that also Alligator?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, that was a company in Canada.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so did you then move away from Alligator then and start recording with other labels?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the guy that owned that company was a friend of the guy at Alligator's, and he asked him could he do an album on it, and he says, all right, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So that's how that
SPEAKER_05:happened. Yeah, it's another good album. I enjoyed that one. And there's an interesting interview, the last track on that album, which is really nice. People can check that out as well and hear some more from you. And then you did an album with Rusty Zinn called Consolidated Mojo. Oh, yeah, yeah. Got a track on it here. You're playing some chromatic low-down blues.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Chromatic is something you play. You've recorded quite a few chromatic tracks, haven't you? So how's the chromatic been for you?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's pretty good. I don't play it all the time, but I play it, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Is it something you started playing, you know, back when you were younger, or did you pick it up later?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I got it from, no, I got the idea from Lou Walter. Lou Walter played chromatic on some of Muddy's stuff, and everybody started getting on the chromatic, and nobody even thought of chromatic until Lou Walter did it.¶¶ Here's the front runner. Whatever he did, everybody copied.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so the use of the chromatic. And then definitely my favorite album of yours, I think he's Checking It Out, which he recorded with Tony McPhee and the Groundhogs
SPEAKER_01:in
SPEAKER_05:2006. Yeah, that's a great album.
SPEAKER_01:In England,
SPEAKER_05:yeah. So yeah, I was about to say, so Tony McPhee is an English guy. Where did you record the album?
SPEAKER_01:It was in London, I think. Yeah, in London. Somewhere in England. I think it was in London.
SPEAKER_05:Right, and so how did this one come about?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well, I was on tour over there, and I thanked the promoter. wanted us to do an album as I came along.
SPEAKER_05:So were they your band while you were touring in England?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they were my backing band,
SPEAKER_05:yeah. Yeah, yeah. It works really well with those guys, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Tony McPhee was a great guitar player.
SPEAKER_05:Nice guy. Yeah, did you record just one album with him or was there more?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, just one. We did only one.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's a great album. I think you captured really well in that album. A lot of your classic songs are on there as well. Riding the L's on there, which I really like, is that Is that a train song?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Got that nice train driving beat. And probably my favorite version of Wish You Would That you've recorded, and you've recorded several versions. I really like that one. It's a really hard-hitting one.
SPEAKER_01:on that Tony McPhee album.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. Great. And then in 2008, you did an album called Billy Boy Sings Sonny Boy. So this is a sort of, you know, you're doing John Lee Williamson songs all through this album. Is that something you always wanted to do? You know, so John Lee was your big harmonica hero, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right. You know, I wanted to play his stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, so obviously John Lee inspired you to start playing one of the songs on there, Rubber Dubb.
SPEAKER_03:Which
SPEAKER_05:is kind of based on Melichick's Wing. I think that was one of your favorites of his, yeah?
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:I did that song on my latest album, too, The Blue Soul of Billy Boy Arnold.
SPEAKER_05:It's
SPEAKER_01:called Just Keep Rubbin'.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so I've got a, there's a good video I'll put a clip on, again, on the podcast page. We're showing you recording a song off the album as well. He's in the band. You've got some great band members on the album, haven't you? Willie Big Eyes Smith is on there as the drummer for one, isn't he? Yeah. What about, you know, John Lee's style, and it's, you know, it's quite early in the sort of harmonica style, but you think it's still very influential, that style, and something that You know, you trust getting to your own playing.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you have to evolve to your own thing, you know. If you just rely on playing somebody else's style, then that means you don't grow. So you have to evolve, you know. You use some of it, and then you move on. Lil' Walter started off playing like John Lee. And then he developed and evolved into his own style. You know, James Cotton, all those guys. Snooki Pryor was a John Lee Williamson student.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, John Lee really started it off, didn't he? Yeah. A few years later, you also did a Billy Boy Sins Big Bill Bruisey song as well.
SPEAKER_01:Oh,
SPEAKER_05:yeah. Were you a big fan of his as well?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, Big Bill, yeah. I was a very big fan of his. He did a lot of recording with Sonny Boy on the guitar, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I liked the way he sang, and I liked the way he played the guitar. And I met him when I was 15 years old, and I was really impressed by him. I heard his music when I was a kid, you know, maybe about seven, eight years old. My aunt had his record, Looking Up to Down. So I was a big, big Bill fan.
SPEAKER_05:So was it your decision to do these tribute albums to Sonny Boy and to Big Bill Broomsey or the record company?
SPEAKER_01:No, it was a guy who wrote a book about on Big Bill. I can't think of his name right off. It was his idea to do a Big Bill album, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And then another one, you have a song on the Little Walter tribute album called Remembering Little Walter. You play You're So Fine on that.
SPEAKER_04:You are a fine, healthy thing.
UNKNOWN:I want to love you all the time.......
SPEAKER_05:How did that come about with, you know, the other harmonica players on there?
SPEAKER_01:I don't remember that one too good. I haven't heard it in so long.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it was somebody's idea.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but a good mixture of players on. Good to get you on that one. And, yeah, as you mentioned earlier on, your latest album is a loose solo of Billy Boy Arnold, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So what year is this one recorded?
SPEAKER_01:That was recorded, I guess, about three years ago or so. Three years ago.
SPEAKER_05:So you're still going strong recording sort of three, four years ago, Billy. You're doing great. So be polite enough not to mention your age, but you were born in 1935. What's the secret of your longevity and still playing for so long?
SPEAKER_01:Well, if there's something you want to do, you don't stop. You know, as long as you can do it,
SPEAKER_05:just
SPEAKER_01:do it.
SPEAKER_05:You've still got that driving energy to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Great to see you. And a few of the other people you played with as well. I think during your career, you know, like you said, you played a lot of the clubs around Chicago with lots of the other great harmonica players, but you also shared stages. You know, played on the same stage as sort of Muddy Waters and Howling Wolves. So, you know, you've been around all these guys. And I know you did a recording session for the BBC in 97 where with John Peel, who's quite famous over here in the UK. I'll put a link onto that, a YouTube clip to that as well, which is interesting. And I've got a song called Three Heart Boogie, which I got you down as playing with James Cotton and Paul Butfield. Is that right? Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
UNKNOWN:MUSIC PLAYS
SPEAKER_05:is that something that you know where you were in the studio together and recording that
SPEAKER_01:no we did that at
SPEAKER_05:uh
SPEAKER_01:A guy that recorded us called Norman Dayrod, his name, and he recorded us at his house here, one of those recorders, and we did that at his house.
SPEAKER_05:Right, but you were there together, were you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, me, Paul Butterfield, and James Cotton.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's a good one to get you all playing together, just that jam. What was Paul Butterfield like?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, he was a nice guy, a nice kid. He was very friendly, and he was very talented. When he first came on the scene, a lot of black people, when they saw him and Charlie Musselwhite, they came on the scene together. And they were surprised to see they could play the harmonicas as well as anybody else and sing as good as any of the black guys. And they would say, oh, you mean to say white people like that kind of music? I say, yeah, they like it. I say, yeah, they like that music too, you know. They were surprised because they thought only black people were interested in it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and of course some great white players have come through. It's funny now, isn't it, because a lot of the blues players now are white guys rather than the black guys. How do you feel about that? I think the black community has lost a bit of interest in the blues. It's all gone to the white guys, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a great compliment because if it wasn't for some of those young old guys coming along, the blues might not be as popular as it is. So that just shows the influence that the blues had on the world. And don't make no difference what nationality you are, what color you are. It's a very emotional music,
SPEAKER_00:and
SPEAKER_01:anybody can do it if they really want it,
SPEAKER_00:you know.
SPEAKER_01:See, you take a guy like Charlie Musselwhite and Paul Butterfield, they were born to do what they do, you know. They didn't just jump up and say, well, I'm going to do this. That was in them just like it was in me, just like it was in Sonny Boy. It just takes, you hear another guy do it, and you realize that you had have that same thing in you to do the same thing,
SPEAKER_05:you know. Yeah, no, it's great to hear it's so inclusive, yeah, and say welcoming that. So recently, I think just published just last year, there's a book that's come out on you written by Kim Field and yourself called The Blues Dream of Billy Boy Arnold, yeah? So how did this come about with Kim?
SPEAKER_01:Kim mentioned it to me, and I didn't think I had enough stuff to write a book, you know? And him and Dick Sherman kept influencing me, yeah, you should do it. And so I did it, and it seemed like it came out pretty good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, superb to get out there. So again, I'll put a link on so that people can find the book. And, you know, so Kim Field, you know, well-established writer about harmonica. He's also written Harmonica's Harps and Heavy Breeders, I think it's called. So I read that book numerous years ago now. So he does a good job. So did you, you know, you helped write this book with Kim Field. Did you? Did you sit together and get things down?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we got together and he asked me questions and I told him, you know, the stories. And he wrote it down.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so you're pleased how it's come out?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I am very
SPEAKER_05:pleased, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's good to put Kim Fields in the same category with Lester Barrett-Rose, R.C. Victor, Leonard Chess, Kim Fields, Dick Sherman. Those are the guys that keep the blues going. I mean, those guys are very influential behind the music.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think one thing what Kim Fields is trying to emphasize with this book as well is that, and as I mentioned at the front, you've been around pretty much for all the time through the boom of the Chicago blues as well as it being your story you know you were there for all that time for the blues boom in Chicago yeah so it really captures those times and you're you know you're one of the you know the people from that time aren't you
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_05:yeah yeah so great definitely recommend people go and check out the book and well done to Kim Field as well for carrying on that writing the blues down So you've had various nominations for the Blues Music Awards. You got the nomination for Blues Music Award for Best Male Artist in 2014. Yeah. Yeah. Was that for particularly one of the albums you did?
SPEAKER_01:I can't remember exactly which one, but
SPEAKER_05:yeah. Yeah, great. And a question I ask each time, Billy, is if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, when you find a song that you really like and that you're inspired by, and you just keep practicing with it until you get it, you get it. If you keep doing it, it'll come to you. Because the fact that you want to do it means that you can do it.
SPEAKER_05:So is that how you started out learning yourself? You know, you listen to records, play along to records, and pick them up that way, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the fact that if you want to do something like that, that means that there's something in you that is in the person that you're listening to. Sonny Boy or LeWalter. So there's something in you that was in them, and if you just stick with it for a while, it'll pay off. Because otherwise it wouldn't have never developed if it wasn't in you to do it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, sure. And when you were learning, you know, and all through the years of your playing, have you, you know, how have you approached practicing? Do you just sort of do it as you're playing along with a band? And, you know, have you sort of approached learning in any particular way? Do you have a particular practice regime, or have you just sort of, you know, played with a band and developed your sound that way?
SPEAKER_01:No, I don't do a lot of practicing, but a lot of guys do it. So it depends on the individual, you know. You have to just work with it, and if you stick with it, and it's in you to do it, and it's in you to do it, the fact that you want to do it. It'll come out. You'll see the fruits of it if you stick with it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, great, yeah. So I'll ask you a few questions about harmonica gear stuff. No, that's okay, just the last sections. So first of all, what harmonicas did you play? You know, back then, I guess, marine bands were the only harmonicas around,
SPEAKER_01:yeah? American Ace and Marine Band.
SPEAKER_05:Do you still play Marine Band's 8 now?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, still. Marine Band is still the best ones.
SPEAKER_05:And what about playing in different harmonic positions? Are you generally playing in second position or do you play some third and what, third and first position and others?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I play in second position, third position on certain songs, but Lowalter started all those positions. You know, he was the guy that created all them different positions on the harmonica, because he was a very aggressive student.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So again, just by picking them up by, you know, listening to the records, you picked up some third position stuff and... Yeah. And what about embouchure-wise? Do you tongue block or pucker or anything else?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I tongue block, and sometimes I just play without tongue block. You use them, it depends on what song, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and the different effects. You think there's benefits for both, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Equipment-wise, what sort of amplifier did you use back then, maybe back in the 50s initially?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, back in those days, most of the guys didn't have a lot of money, the younger guys. You could go to Maxwell Street and buy an amplifier for 25 or 30 bucks and get one of those bullet type of mics, and you start out with that. And if you get real good, like a little off, then you can buy the expensive stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So back then, you weren't particularly choosy about your amplifier then. You basically got whatever you could afford, yeah?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, whatever you could afford, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:And whatever, everybody around Chicago, whatever Lowalter came up with, that's the one they would go for. They would buy
SPEAKER_05:it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Some of the stuff Lowalter would come up with was too expensive for the average guy to buy it, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Lowalter was traveling and making big money. You couldn't afford it, you know. But they had amplifiers that was just as good, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Well, the old tube amplifiers that were being sold, like you're saying, Maxwell Street.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. They had the sound, yeah. You could get the good sound out of that, you You know, this is a cheaper amplifier. Sonny Boy told me that he paid$200 for the amplifier. He had his house. He said, I paid$200 cash for this. So, of course, if you was in a position like he was in, you could buy a$200 amp. Most of the young guys starting out will buy a$35,$40 amp, you know.
SPEAKER_05:And is it right that, Sonny Boy first, You know, he did play amplified, didn't he? And he sort of started the amplification.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yes. He played amplified harps in the club, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, because I think a lot of people think that Little Walter started harmonica amplification, didn't
SPEAKER_01:they? No, Sonny Boy started that. Muddy Walter said the first guy he heard play amplified harmonica was John Lee's Sonny Boy Williams. And Snooki Pryor claimed that he was the first one, but he wasn't.
SPEAKER_05:And more recently, you know, well, let's say back in the 90s, when you came out with these two Alligator albums, did then you start getting interested in amplifiers and choosing what amplifiers you were playing through?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do
SPEAKER_05:you have any particular favorite amplifiers then and now?
SPEAKER_01:Well, now, most of the time they have a, you play through the mic on the stage, but if you're playing in a club, you might have an amplifier and it don't have to be a brand new and a later model unless you want to spend a lot of money and an amplifier is pretty heavy to carry around, so different guys use a different thing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so you might use what's in the club a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and again, microphone-wise, you just, you've got some mics that you take right with you, have you? You carry a mic with you, yeah. Did you ever use any effects pedals. No, I never use none of that. Nothing, no reverb or delay, anything like that at all? No, no.
SPEAKER_01:I never use that.
SPEAKER_05:Finally then, obviously, are you still out playing at the moment? Are you still getting out playing and got plans to get out playing later this year?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm not playing because of this pandemic. I don't want to get out there and, you know, play until the pandemic is over.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I might play and I might not, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so are you still thinking about you might get out playing again when hopefully the pandemic goes away?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And over the pandemic, have you still been playing some music or have you been just taking a break from it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm still playing, you know, listening to music as I always did, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because of the pandemic, I don't want to get out there. What
SPEAKER_05:harmonica plays do you like to listen to these days?
SPEAKER_01:I like to listen to all of the greats. You know, anybody that says anything on harmonica, I listen to them, yeah. Because you can always get ideas, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so you're still interested in listening to harmonica? players now, not just the older guys.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, any of the new guys come up, I listen to them.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, anyone I should check out there?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you got so many that haven't made records. You know, most of the time you check out the ones that made a record. If they make a record, you make a record in Chicago, that record go to England or Japan or wherever. And so you hear that and you buy the record and you listen and say, oh, this guy's great. If they're playing with a known band, then you know what you listen to.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, superb. So thanks so much for joining me today, Billy Boy Arnold. Okay, you're welcome. That's episode 53 done. and so grateful to get great Billy Boy Arnold on the show. A true legend of the harmonica and being around during that heyday Chicago time. It's great to get him on. Been wanting to get him on for quite some time now. Big shout out thanking Bob Corritore a previous guest on the show who helped me set it up with Billy. So thanks so much, Bob. I had to run that interview over the telephone, which is not always my preference, but sometimes has to be done. Not the greatest telephone line on Billy's side, so apologies for the crackling sounds. I did my best to improve it, but I like to think that with such an authentic Chicago great, maybe having a little crackling just adds a little authenticity to it all, like a crackling record. Also like to thank Robert Sawyer and Ruben Emanuele for donating some funds to help me running the podcast. So thank you, Robert and Ruben, much appreciated. Remember, oh, you can check out my website now, which is harmonicahappyhour.com, where you can find some more information and hopefully a better format off to browse through the different podcasts available. There's some featured episodes on there and other useful stuff. And you can contact me as well through the website and always appreciate any suggestions for any future guests. I'm still working on the website it's still coming together so I'll keep you on that. Do remember to check out the Spotify playlist. All the songs, pretty much the clips of the songs which were included, the full songs are available on Spotify. So do go and check that out and then you can listen to the songs. There's a huge collection of songs in that Spotify playlist for all the tracks we talked about through the podcast series. So thanks very much. And finally, over to the one and only Bill Boy Arnold. There's only one track to play us out with and that is his classic harmonica song, I Wish You Would, recorded with Tony McPhee and the Groundhogs.
SPEAKER_04:Come back, baby, I wish you would Billy Boy, Billy Boy,
SPEAKER_03:where
SPEAKER_04:you
SPEAKER_03:been?
SPEAKER_04:In jail and I'm gone again Billy Boy, Billy Boy, where's
SPEAKER_03:your
SPEAKER_04:wife? Out in the alley shootin' dice
UNKNOWN:Bye.